Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity

Coming Home Network ^ | Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.

[ArrogantBustard]

Beat me by two seconds! Thhhhbbbbbt!

[RobRoy]

>>So all of your relationships are on equal footing? The guy down the street is just as precious to you as your mother or father? You don’t show favoritism to your children over someone else’s children? You don’t lift ANYONE above other people?<<

Not from a Christian perspective. No I don’t.

[OLD REGGIE]

I quote Byzantine Majority. What variant do you have?

I don't have one at all. Do you have the partial version which dates from the 4th century or the 9th century one?

[Petronski]

Thank you for saying so.

[ArrogantBustard]

I am stating an opinion

Yes

and using God Breathed SCRIPTURE

As we all are. Yes, even us unwashed Catholics.

, not the writings of my church leadership

That "church leadership" has at least as much authority to interpret Scripture as you and I do.

So ... unless somebody is ordained by God to settle disputes ... we end up with chaos. Read up on the Arian controversy, to find out just how chaotic it can be. (Hint: The FR Religion Forum is NOTHING compared to that.)

[RobRoy]

>>Nobody here is claiming an “in with God.”<<

Maybe not here. My wife is ex-catholic, where she was a member for many decades. One of the reasons she left Catholicism is that there was an “unspoken” culture that your relationship with God had church leaders coming between you and Christ. It is kinda like the unspoken rule in Assembly’s of God that those that do not speak in tongues are sort of “have nots”. And to that one I can attest. I was a member for 18 years.

[Rutles4Ever]

Not from a Christian perspective. No I don’t.

So that commandment about specifically honoring your father and mother doesn't apply?

[trisham]

God bless you. Such admission is extremely rare. Class act, Sir.

***************

May I echo that? You have my respect, RobRoy.

[Petronski]

On this thread, I’d’ve bet anything you paid for “abuse” (down the hall...).

[Petronski]

Such a belief is an error and not consistent with Catholic teaching. I’m also not too terribly surprised it happened.

Bad catechesis is inevitable in any sufficiently-large “modernized” organization.

[annalex]

Unbound Bible.

[stfassisi]

“”No one need resort to typology to find proof of the Son of God as Messiah. One need only read Isaiah, or any other prophet to gain this knowledge plainly.””

I believe Jesus is God because the Church said so before there was a Bible. The Bible reinforces that belief along with the writings of the Early Christians.

Keep in mind that the Scriptures did not come with signatures from the Apostles. We believe them because the Catholic Church says they were authentic. There are NOT complete originals left of the Scriptures as well,there are only scraps and pieces

See for yourself (courtesy of Kosta50) lefthttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1960587/posts?page=1300#1300

You're,trusting the Catholic Church a lot more than you might think without even realizing it.

You would have a far better chance in using typology and the writings of the early Christians to reinforce that typology to convince those who deny the divinity of Christ that they are in error rather than point to only Isiah.

Here is more typology for you concerning Messianic Prophecies fulfilled

Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death,
Resurrection and Ascension

Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus’ hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus’ garments among them.

Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus’ garments.

Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus’ bones were broken.

Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.

Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.

Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.

Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.

Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.

Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.

Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.

Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.

Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man's tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).

Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.

Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus’ crucifixion and death.

Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus’ death and rising on the third day.

Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.

Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.

Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus’ side was pierced.

Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus’ disciples forsook Him and scattered.

And some more from the Church Fathers

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).

“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).

“And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle’ (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.’ And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.’” Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181).

Good stuff,right?

[RobRoy]

>>As we all are. Yes, even us unwashed Catholics.<<

I should say something here: I am NOT anti-catholic. In fact, one of my friends converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago. He is a strong believer.

I do have a lot of problems with Catholicism, but then, I have a lot of problems with my own church - just not as many. If the only church within 30 miles of my house was Catholic. That is where I would probably attend. I would still argue this same stuff just like I argue against Pre-tribulationism with my brothers in my current church. ;)

I have never attended a church with which I agreed 100%. If I did, I would be a lemming.

[RobRoy]

>>So ... unless somebody is ordained by God to settle disputes ... we end up with chaos.<<

Or a lot of different churches. ;)

I left one church because the elders were making daffy decisions.

I also know one man who is Jehovas Witness becuase they are of one mind and you can go to any of their churches in the world on any given day and get the same message. For me, that is not the litmus test of a “true Christian” church.

[RobRoy]

>>So that commandment about specifically honoring your father and mother doesn’t apply?<<

It does. But it depends on how you mean “honor”. I consider it, like love, to be an action, not a feeling.

[RobRoy]

>>On this thread, I’d’ve bet anything you paid for “abuse” (down the hall...).<<

Got me laughing out loud on that one!

What a stupid concept! ;)

[Petronski]

I should say something here: I am NOT anti-catholic.

I know that. I can tell.

The others do not know how to apologize.

[RobRoy]

>>Bad catechesis is inevitable in any sufficiently-large “modernized” organization.<<

Yup.

[OLD REGGIE]

But hey, I guess you know more that Blessed Saint Athansius?

Athanasius of Alexandria (A.D. 296-373) was the most prominent theologian of the fourth century, and he served as bishop of Alexandria. His list of canonical books was published as part of his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle of A.D. 367. After the list he declares, “these are the wells of salvation, so that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the sayings in these. Let no one add to these. Let nothing be taken away.”

4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second 1 being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth 2 as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second 3 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the Twelve [minor prophets] being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle, one book; afterwards Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

But hey,I guess you know more that Blessed Saint Athansius?

You would cherrypick his writings would you?

Athanasius on the Canon

[RobRoy]

Sometimes we are just able to see what “we interpret” as warts in other churches easier than the warts in our own.

And yeah, I put myself in the WE.

I coined a phrase about 12 years ago regarding how I see ALL MEN (even the apostles and Mary): We are all disobedient children on the playground.

And whenever I hear someone say “I deserve better”, I think or say, “If you got what you deserved you’d be dead.”