Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex
Goodness! I'll inform the Pope of your dissatisfaction! I'm sure this can all be fixed if he's lost your support.
Take heart. I have no doubt it is clear to all, many of whom may simply be observers, what is happening here.
Regarding all the other hynm quotes etc. You are merely building a case for goofy lyrics in “Christian” songs. Heck, it’s all over the place today as well. There are a lot of songs I would not do (I played for many years in a worship service band and orchestra) because they were not scripturally sound.
But they sound swell so a lot of people still use them.
Ah, more of that absurd predestination again...truly chief among Cauvin's unbiblical Traditions of (Mad) Men.
Cauvin's position here makes the Holy Spirit a rapist.
And to make this real clear. My beliefs are not based on what other people believe. They are based on what the Bible says. Some authors may help me to see it in a way I hadn’t before (My favorite is C. S. Lewis) but I test their words against the scripture.
Many of the things I have read are strongly and obviously supported by scripture. This “Mary” was a virgin her whole life” goofyness is not. In fact it is CLEARLY contradicted by scripture both in word and spirit.
The Orthodox/Catholic Church (now two Churches) not only chose which writings would be included in the Bible, which would be canonical and which would be deutrocanonical, they passed on the Apostolic Traditions, developed basic theology, codified the basic doctrines of Christianity (like the trinity) and spread Christianity around the world.
I bet Augustine, Irenaeus, John Chrysostom and Justin Matyr and some of the other early Church leaders would school these Protestant upstart armchair theologians who now call their traditions “heretical.”
I don’t understand why you can’t get this:
1. Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity.
2. Therefore, Jesus is God.
3. Mary is His mother.
4. Mary is the mother (in the human manner) of God become Incarnate(Jesus, Second Person of the Trinity).
It’s really very simple.
What Church documents have you read that “deifies” Mary? If you haven’t read anything officially published by the Church, then you are just making it up from your “observations,” which might actually be incorrect!
“Goodness! I’ll inform the Pope of your dissatisfaction! I’m sure this can all be fixed if he’s lost your support.”
Naw. No need. I suspect he is as interested in what I have to say as I am in what he has to say.
How wonderfully Nestorian of you.
Heck, you can go even further back. Try the Gospel of Luke. The Magnificat wasn’t just thought up by Luke. It was most likeley a song of praise that the earliest of Christians composed on behalf of Mary, based on its proximity to other “songs” in Scripture of similar thrust, and Luke’s reliance on eyewitnesses in writing the Gospel.
What it boils down to is this: Christians were venerating Mary while she was still alive, and for Luke, one who was so close to St. Paul, to include it in his Gospel says a lot about her esteem among them. To deny that the early Church honored Mary does injury to the Holy Spirit, her Spouse, who inspired Luke to include this fact in his Gospel.
I read 169. I also replied.
That is not precisely true, but I won't argue the point here...
Like any other scriptural claim, mariological exegesis is necessary to clarify them. This is why the exegesis has to be grounded in the Holy Tradition and not in 19-20c mariophobic fantasies.
But it is the Scriptural claim that is in question. I can think of no belief, broadly held by Christianity that does not have evidence of a very strong theme in both the Word and the Prophecy, to say the least. Mary does not.
Perhaps I can show you that typology was why the early Christian's KNEW Jesus was God?
Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son
Exodus 3:14 - God says “I AM who I AM” - John 8:58 - Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I AM” in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 I will make him the first-born, the highest (elyon which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said “I have said nothing secretly.”
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus’ name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus’ glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus’ voice was like the sound of many waters.
Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.
And the Early Christians Agreed
“God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but inasmuch as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power, the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain, becomes the first-begotten work of the Father. Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation, not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him.” Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 5 (c. A.D. 175).
“We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man.” Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 21 (c. A.D. 175).
“But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos.” Athenagoras, Plea for Christians, 10 (A.D. 177).
“We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe...And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.” Tertullian, Apology, 21 (A.D. 197).
“But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).
Now lets look at Mary as the New Eve
Mary is the New Eve (More Typology)
Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the Tree of Life, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
The Early Christians saw this very clear...
He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, Be it unto me according to thy word. And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)
In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eves disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
“And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first-fruit among men of the purity which consists in chastity, and Mary among women; for it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first-fruit of virginity.” Origen, Commentary on Matthew, 10:17 (A.D. 244).
“Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God [Theotokos] bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 10:19 (A.D. 350).
There are many more examples of typology I can show you regarding Jesus and the Blessed Mother.
This is the way the Bible makes complete sense and this is the way the early Christians understood.
I wish you A blessed evening!
Douay is, in my view, the most accurate, and King James also has "friends". The original says "oi par autou", "those with Him".
We find these seven mentioned not only by Eusebius ("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi) but also by St. Jerome (De viris illust., c. xvi). Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius
Letters of Ignatius - Authentic or Forgeries. (Catholic Encyclopedia)
***The Holy Spirit teaches me what it says and means***
How do you know you’re right? What is your authority? Many, many verses have been argued about among Protestants - as an example: Baptism. Sprinkling, pouring, immersion, infant, age-of-reason, washing away of sins, Sacrament, necessary, unnecessary, etc. Where is the authority for which interpretation?
***The killer for me was when they said my children were bastards if they weren’t in the Catholic church.***
What is this? I don’t understand!
Of course if one has chosen “brothers” to signify a group of cousins, second cousins, and sundry relatives, then in a possessive case we get “his brothers”.
>>So, you dont think the writings of the Early Church Fathers hold any weight?<<
I do think they hold SOME weight, just as the writings of modern bible scholars hold SOME weight. But like me, they are mere men. I have been granted by God the freedom to interpret extra-biblical writings as I see fit.
>>You dont think that these people knew the Apostles...<<
No
>>...or their successors personally?<<
Over how many generations? And why did the apostles themselves not make this whole thing clear in His word. Why do they completely ignore Mary? What do I care how well “these people” knew the Apostles when I have the Apostles words themselves?
>>You think this was just made up?<<
Yes, I do. It may have been with good intentions, just as many churches have that silly “Christian” flag complete with pledge. Mine used to. I protested and it actually eventually came down. I don’t even like the US flag there.
Man always wants to add to the bible for some reason. It just seems more, I dunno, reverent I suppose. The Catholic church has added a lot of Jesus Junk merely because it has been around longer than the Protestants. But give us Protties time and we’ll probably catch up.
>>That they might be handing on the teachings of the Apostles, as they had learned it personally from Christ?<<
And they might be full of baloney. Who’s to say? Answer: Compare their words to scripture. It is a time tested method.
And what DID the Apostles themselves say about Mary? Nothing.
Regarding the RCC fixation on Mary:
1. She was sinless from her conception. A lie.
2. She was born of a virgin. A lie.
3. She was a virgin all her life. A supposition.
4. She was assumed into heaven. Another supposition.
5. She is meritorious regarding the salvation of men. A lie.
6. She is the “Queen of heaven. A lie.
7. She is worshiped by the RCC. A fact.
“Vast sums of money are spent on jeweled crowns and lavish clothing for some special statues of Mary. (You can see pictures of them in the Catholic devotional book, Miraculous Images of Our Lady.) In the Philippines, there is a statue of Our Lady of the Rosary that is nearly 5 feet high. It wears a crown of gold studded with diamonds, rubies, and other gems. There is a large halo like a sunburst behind its head, made of gold and diamonds. In Spain, a statue of Our Lady of the Forsaken has elegant gowns and mantles decorated with gold and jewels. It has a large collection of jewels, including $50,000 worth of jewels that are a gift from Queen Isabella II. Our Lady of Guadalupe is best known for a painting in Mexico, but there is also a statue in Spain that wears gold and jewels. It has a sunburst headdress with 30,000 jewels. In Germany, a statue of Our Lady of Alotting has a gold crown covered with rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and diamonds. It wears a necklace of pearls and rubies, and a gown that is decorated with gold, pearls, diamonds, emeralds, and rubies. The statue is in a shrine with a silver altar and walls that are decorated with silver. In Spain, a statue of Our Lady of the Pillar wears clothing decorated with gold and jewels, and a large gold crown covered with jewels. There is a sunburst (halo) behind the statue with a diameter that is larger than the height of the statue. A full-color, close-up picture of the crown and sunburst shows that they are covered with diamonds, emeralds, and rubies. On the wall behind the statue are 148 gold stars; 80 of them are set with jewels. Even paintings of Mary can wear jewels. In Russia, there is a painting of Our Lady of Kazan that is covered with a rizza (a structure of gold that covers the entire painting except for the faces of Mary and baby Jesus). This rizza has more than 1,000 diamonds, rubies, pearls, and sapphires on it.
“In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre “Mystical City” complex. According to an article in “Caribbean Business,” this statue “will top at 1,500 feet”. According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.”
Jewish by birth. They became Christian when they came to believe that Jesus was Christ.
The Catholic Church began with the words of Christ ("On this rock...")
Peter is the first pope.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.