Posted on 03/24/2008 3:36:37 PM PDT by annalex
Your analogy is hopelessly flawed; you just made Roger into a Pope.
A more correct analogy would be the Predident sending you a toolkit along with a note saying all the tools in the kit are trustworthy. No one is disputing that. Without a note from the President stating you won't need any other tools, the trustworthyness of the tools is irrelevant to the question at hand.
If scripture is an authority, and claims to be the final authority before God Himself, above all people, then it either is not really an authority, or is what it claims to be.
Where does it claim final authority?
Works, works, works. They will buy you nothing but heartache. The good works are reflection of something that has already happened to the individual they do not cause the change.
James 2:20-21 ...O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
No he wasn't. He was already saved by Grace through faith. The willingness to sacrifice Isaac only showed his faith.
Hebrews 11:8 By Faith Abraham obeyed...
Rom. 4:2-4 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
You are right of course, but at some point faith must become a verb.
Which bishops wrote which books? The NT was written by Apostles and those that traveled with them. The centralized hierarchy only emerged later.
When people say the Holy Spirit leads them to understand the scripture, you just don't get it...Spiritual and logical just don't jive...
Just a quick question to clarify your point - do you believe our Intellect is a gift from God? If yes, do you believe logic is an ability of our Intellect? If yes, what is the proper role of logic in our lives, and in respect to Scripture?
Reading your posts on various threads I can see you have a sincere love for Christ and that I doubt you believe He would endow us with gifts and then expect us to not use them. I realize I might be making some presumptions in this post - if any are wrong, please correct me.
Gainsaying is an old term for rebellion. I don't dispute the Korah rebellion. Within the tribe of Levi God had appointed different divisions; only Aaron's family was able to go into the Holies of Holy. Korah was from the tribe of Levi but was assigned to move and carry the tabernacle (Number 3 and 4). He and his family of the Levite tribe wanted the same privileges and duties that had been assigned to Aaron's family. This was against what God had ordered. Korah's rebellion was not against Moses but against what God had specifically stated and appointed.
And therein lies the problem: they hold the same to be true in reverse. That is, if "proven in the Book, in the Protestant mind" it MUST be true, even if it doesn't work...I.e. God doesn't agree and validate it with an action of the Holy Spirit.
But we are. You just don't recognize yet that we are one in the body of Jesus because we are his.
The Catholic Church is a divine insitution established by Christ in one of those self-evident scriptural passages, and not a "committee".
If you mean the universal body of believers I agree. If you mean the church of Rome you are wrong. The "Rock" is Jesus Christ our Saviour the Son of God. It is those with faith in him that make up the church militant.
Where does it claim final authority?
Matt 24:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11, 1 Thess. 2:13, 2 Tim. 3:16 for starters. Think about it. What would the final authority be below God if not His Word? If scripture is truly inspired by God, then it must by definition be the final authority and no one below can contradict it. Appeals to scripture are final appeals. Take the whole book of Hebrews as an example.
And the problem with that would be...?
Next we'll be told it's idolatry to put flowers on Grandma's grave :o/
I promise, anyone looking for a problem to have, will find it.
What do you believe causes that?
Take my word for it, it's there.
Uhm, yeah.
Num 16:3
And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?...28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; ...
I don't see the problem... what doesn't work? Perhaps an example might be in order...
The indwelling Ghost, I would suppose- The action (be it a change in lifestyle, temperament, charitable giving, etc) is the proof of the Spirit within.
Now you know none of those Scriptures say any such thing, or you wouldn't be telling me to "think about it" : you'd be quoting.
What would the final authority be below God if not His Word?
The guy he gave the keys to the kingdom, and his successors.
If scripture is truly inspired by God, then it must by definition be the final authority and no one below can contradict it.
No, it must by definition be "correct." Scripture can not be the final authority if it makes no such claim.
Agreed, Protestants should say so, but then we have an apostolic and historical tradition of the Church versus the whims and preferences of few centuries ago, so such line of argumentation would be devastating to them.
And there is something you don't find in the Bible.
On that score, we get to the Catholic position because delegation of authority to the Church is explicitly made in the Scripture. I don't think the author would disagree either.
You mean the shifting sands of "tradition" of one group over the scriptural authority unchanged since before 90 AD?
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