Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Mad Dawg]

***Jesus instituted a family not an organization.***

Are you saying that the Apostles after Pentecost were disorganized?

I don't know what "he's" saying, But I'll say it fer shur!

Organized? Catholics? It is to laugh! ha ha!

I had a meeting with some diocesan guy scheduled for November. (I think this is right, I'm no more organized than the rest of 'em.) So we actually meet in December. He says he'll get back to me in January. So about three days ago he made contact and we're going to meet in mid-to-late March.

Yeah, I'd say the Apostles were disorganized. In fact, for years I've considered this a great sign that the Church is directed by God's Holy Spirit. If this bunch of bozos can accomplish anything, it HAS to be by God's help.

Okay, now that that's off my chest, it's time to think hard about what billion member family is like. It's not for nothing that that guy with the white cassock is called the 'Holy Father'. But when you have a billion brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts, even figuring out who's going to do the dishes can get a tad bureaucratic sometimes ....

But ORGanized? Nah. No fear!

[hosepipe]

[ We may not like the concept of worshipping God in the Eucharist once a week or more since it gets us out of our warm beds on Sundays, yet there it is. ]

The (roman)"catholic" Eucharist mocks Christ by taking his metaphor and making it literal.. The message is morphed into a cartoon.. He didnt nickname Cephas "a rock"(Petros/Peter) he talked of a spiritual building.. made of rock(s) with him as the chief cornerstone..

Most of the "Apostles" missed many/some of his metaphors anyway.. After all they were called when illiterate or barely literate teenagers anyway.. Even today most of Jesus metaphors are missed.. not just the bread and wine.. Making them literal occludes them.. But then thats as planned.. You know by Jesus.. Quite a beautiful plan really..

[hosepipe]

[ So when the Apostles went about their task of bishops over areas, instituting churches (written about extensively in Acts and the Epistles), they were actually going against the words of the Reformed God? ]

No..... Jesus didnt forbid forming CLUBS.. like Synagogs..
Clubs with officers and secret door knocks, hand shakes and everything..
You know sheep pens.. (John Ch 10)..

[kosta50]

Well then, it would be more accurate to say (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure 4th century Christianity)

Unless you can show me that the Church whose bible you accept was not orthodox in the 4th century, and unless you can name another "church" that was, I will stay with "Orthodoxy is pure Christianity" because it's the same orthodox faith that subsisted in the the same catholic and aposotlic Church from the beginning.

[MarkBsnr]

***9 For we are God’s coadjutors.*** Merriam Webster says: Main Entry: co·ad·ju·tor Pronunciation: \ˌkō-ə-ˈjü-tər, kō-ˈa-jə-tər\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English coadjutour, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin coadjutor, from Latin co- + adjutor helper, from adjuvare to help — more at aid Date: 15th century 1 : one who works together with another : assistant 2 : a bishop assisting a diocesan bishop and often having the right of succession So we have a 15th century word that describes what St. Paul is saying. An assistant. The Reformers of course had no problem with St. Paul describing himself and others as working together with God in order to do. The descendents of the Reformers gradually removed that ability from Mary and the saints. ***8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth, are one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.*** Oh that foolish St. Paul, advocating works. I think that Saint Calvin oughta spank him right through tomorrow.

[MarkBsnr]

***I could see it within the catholic or universal church but certainly not the Roman Catholic church. There were many churches at that time.***

And St. Paul spent most of his time cudgeling them into line. Into the Church’s line. They either practiced the newly evolving Christianity or they were deemed heretical and thrown out of the Church.

The Church spent most of the first 300 years defining exactly what it was that they believed and enforcing it. There was one Church and one Church only.

[hosepipe]

[ And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.*** Oh that foolish St. Paul, advocating works. I think that Saint Calvin oughta spank him right through tomorrow. ]

Whether John Calvin or Pope or Bishop or Deacon we all can be a little foolish.. Humility is a virtue.. and gratitude is indeed awareness.. for eating his word(s) as manna and painting his blood on the doorposts of our heart is wisdom..

[MarkBsnr]

***The (roman)”catholic” Eucharist mocks Christ by taking his metaphor and making it literal..***

Are you saying that the Apostles and all the Church for the first 1500 years of its existence mocked Christ? And that the first ones who had a clue were the very ones who assumed religious titles in their own created churches?

***Most of the “Apostles” missed many/some of his metaphors anyway.***

So how do you arrive at the fact that these incapable, incompetent and mocking indivuals and their successors were able to put together Christian Scripture in an infallible fashion?

Let’s see if I can recap some of hosepope’s theology:

The Apostles were nincompoops and weren’t worth a tinker’s damn in the whole scheme of things.

Every single member of the Church including the Apostles mocked Jesus at frequent opportunities.

I probably am missing some nuggets of fools gold in there. Could you enlighten me please?

[MarkBsnr]

***No..... Jesus didnt forbid forming CLUBS.. like Synagogs..
Clubs with officers and secret door knocks, hand shakes and everything..
You know sheep pens.. (John Ch 10)..***

John 10:16

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

One flock, one shepherd, one pen. Not pens. The Jews (these sheep) and the Gentiles (other sheep) are to be united under Christ.

You seem hung up on clubs and secret handshakes and door knocks. Did the Freemasons reject your membership big?

[blue-duncan]

“I will stay with “Orthodoxy is pure Christianity” because it’s the same orthodox faith that subsisted in the the same catholic and aposotlic Church from the beginning.”

Then extend the same courtesy to those who affirm their church pedigree with the same kind of interpretive history.

[MarkBsnr]

***Whether John Calvin or Pope or Bishop or Deacon we all can be a little foolish.. Humility is a virtue.. and gratitude is indeed awareness.. for eating his word(s) as manna and painting his blood on the doorposts of our heart is wisdom..***

Are you labeling Sacred Scripture as foolish? Are you saying that you understand St. Paul to be advocating works in words that are found in every single Bible ever printed, that was chosen to be included in Scripture and are still calling those words foolish?

You have novel theologies indeed, my friend.

I would be curious as to how Hosepope I is able to decide which is metaphor and which is literal and then decide what the metaphor is for.

[MarkBsnr]

***Then extend the same courtesy to those who affirm their church pedigree with the same kind of interpretive history.
***

If you don’t mind, would you share your church’s identity with us?

[hosepipe]

[ The Apostles were nincompoops and weren’t worth a tinker’s damn in the whole scheme of things. ]

Yes thats sometimes the way we are/do.. I didnt say ALL.. Superlatives hide reality.. MAybe "most" would be a better word not all.. "WE" "get it" sometimes and sometimes we don't.. Whether Calvin or Pope.. we are still men.. I understood "the Bible" (even spirituality) one way when I was 20 but quite differently now..

[ Every single member of the Church including the Apostles mocked Jesus at frequent opportunities. ]

NO.. "every single" is another superlative.. You are quite emotional.. I like that.. They just understood (some of) scripture askew or even "spun" toward presupposition.. Calvinists do the same thing.. as do Jews..

[ I probably am missing some nuggets of fools gold in there. Could you enlighten me please? ]

The blind leading the blind?.. I'm not perfect either..

[hosepipe]

[ One flock, one shepherd, one pen. Not pens. ]

Jesus was/is the door to the sheep pen(John ch 10).. Those that hear his voice and follow him (OUT of the sheep pen) are the flock(called OUT ones i.e."church").. Those in the sheep pen are pen mates.. i.e. clubbers.. This metaphor is rich and meaningful.. and explains a lot.. {snip} He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churchs..

[hosepipe]

[ Did the Freemasons reject your membership big? ]

Freemasons are probably democrats..

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing those beautiful Scriptures!

[kosta50]

HD: On the other side was the Latin who branded (at least initially) Cassian as a heretic

St. Cassian is a Saint of the Latin Church as well. He was never branded a heretic. The Orthodox Church to this day follows St. Clement's teaching that man is not dead, but ill and in need of a physician.

The Latin Church realized that, within the framework of St. Augustine's interpretation of Rom 5:12 (ef' haw pantes hemarton) the translation (in whom [Adam] all men have sinned) by necessity leads to his doctrine of inherited original sin.

But, it also recognized that the other interpretation (so much for Protestant superstition of perspicuity of the scriptures that even a 5-year-old can understand!), "because all men have sinned" is equally valid and is was the teaching of the Church all along, the inherited guilt does not exist, and we are sinners only because of sins we have actually committed. No guilt is inherited.

We Orthodox can understand, but not accept, the necessity for the Latin dogma of Immaculate Conception based on St. Augustine's interpretation of Rom 5:12, because it is almost imperative within that framework.

From the Orthodox interpretation of Rom 5:12, such a dogma is meaningless. The reason the Orthodox church does not accept it is not because Augustinian interpretation is necessarily wrong grammatically, but because it was not the understanding of the Church based on what the Church taught before him.

To accept his version is, in effect, to say that the Church taught incorrectly. Rather, we believe that, although grammatically there can be two meanings in +Paul's verse, it is the individual and not the Church as a whole, that is at fault, and that the older teaching is the orthodox teaching. New dogmas cannot contradict the faith, once delivered, and proclaimed "everywhere and always."

That this was the understanding of the Church as a whole all along is also made evident by the fact that St. Cassian is not condemned by the Church, Latin or Greek, depsite the pronoucements of the local Council of Orange, and that the Church, as a whole, did not teach Augustinian "original sin" as doctrine.

The Church did (and does) allow theologians enough room to speculate and hypothesize, as long as they deferred to the Church (which St. Augustine did absolutely) but the ideas of individual fathers are not doctrine or heresy until they are declared as such by an Ecumenical (not local) Council.

Of course this is where our other disagreement with the Latins, namely over Papel jurisdiction, comes in. But that's another topic.

Another important thing to remember is that theological hypotheses (theologoumena) cannot be "new," but new expressions of the same faith taught "everywhere and always." There has to be complete agreement with everything the Church taught from the beginning and nothing may be invented or added if it was not taught or believed as such all along.

The Church is not "discovering" or "learning" its faith as time passes, HD!

[kosta50]

Then extend the same courtesy to those who affirm their church pedigree with the same kind of interpretive history

Which 'church?' Man-made 'churches' created 1500 years after Christ, and later?

For for the sake of "fainess" to man-made inventions, I am to accept such 'churches' as 'pure Christianity?' Your God is by everything I heavr and read form Portestant lips and writings is not the same God the Church knew from the beginning.

To you Christ is merely a "mediator." I tell you, I never realized how much Arainism and Gnosticism subsided in Protestant beliefs. This was an eye-opener into what heresy really means.

[hosepipe]

Are you labeling Sacred Scripture as foolish? Are you saying that you understand St. Paul to be advocating works [ in words that are found in every single Bible ever printed, that was chosen to be included in Scripture and are still calling those words foolish? ]

I dont know what you mean by this.. maybe out of context.. Jesus spoke in metaphor mode to make scripture seem foolish to the "goats".. on purpose..

[ You have novel theologies indeed, my friend. ]

UN-Orthodox?... true..

[ I would be curious as to how Hosepope I is able to decide which is metaphor and which is literal and then decide what the metaphor is for. ]

Sometimes I can't... sometimes I can.. Some of Jesus metaphors are still a mystery to me.. Probably because of a lack in personal spirituality/ holyness/ or something like that.. I'm growing as you are.. Like being "born again" is a beautiful metaphor..

Some treat metphors like; "its raining cats and dogs" then they run to the window to see pets falling.. missing the meaning of the metaphor.. "The flesh is weak but the Spirit gives life", to the WORDS.. Is GOD cool or what?..

[kosta50]

Freemasons are probably democrats

Fat chance. If anything they would be neocons.