Posted on 01/11/2008 5:12:12 AM PST by SJackson
You said you were finished posting. I told you already - I will not look to the “early fathers”, et. al. for Truth. They were mere men, susceptible to error.
I would be willing to accept that the RCC “official” history has as much error in it as any that a reformed historian would publish. It’s arrogant for one to think they have THE Truth - apart from what the Lord has written down.
I call the “Catholic Church” the RCC because it was started there and is based in and controlled from Rome.
As Martin Luther is quoted as having said - “Peace if possible, Truth at all costs.”
Martin Luther also said this...
"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS
Something to think about, Dear Brother.
I wish you a most Blessed Evening!
Obviously, Martin Luther is as every other man - wrong about many things. It is a contrived idea that the RCC gave “us” the Bible; that the Pope speaks for God - neither of these is true but RCC teaches that they are.
Scripture says “Let God be True and every man a liar”. I’ll take the Lord’s Word over the words of every other man who has ever walked the Earth - including Calvin’s.
Something to think about - God alone is without error.
What you should find even more disturbing is people who write about the Catholic Church being corrupt(like in the article you posted) around the time of Constantine.
This is the time period when Bible canon was taking place and this would mean that you trusted corrupt men to give you Bible canon. Remember that ALL the Church Fathers were totally as Catholic as I am today
I don’t even have to think about such things because I know that Athanasis, Jerome and alike were certainly men of God that were guided by the Holy Spirit.
I also can trace back what they believed and how they interpreted scriptures through over 2000 years and see clear consistency.
Keep searching,Dear friend.
You set up straw man arguments to knock down. I have not claimed the Bible dropped down from the sky. The Bible testifies that God gave certain men His Words. RCC history assumes much that is far from certain. Many people find NO evidence of Roman Catholic doctrine or practice or offices until the 4th century, even though Roman Catholics claim Peter as a Pope - something which Peter’s own words fail to support.
Early Christians may have been called Catholics, but that is a far cry from belonging to the RCC. The Old Testament was written by God’s inspired prophets, patriarchs, psalmists, judges, and kings. It was faithfully copied and preserved by Jewish scribes. Modern Protestant Bibles have the same content as the Hebrew Bible.
The New Testament was written by Christian apostles. None of them were Catholics, because there was no Roman Catholic Church at the time. The canon of the New Testament was not formed by the decision of any Church council. Rather, the Council of Carthage (397 A.D.) listed as canonical “only those books that were generally regarded by the consensus of use as properly a canon”. In other words, it didn’t create the canon. Rather, it confirmed the identity of the canon which already existed.
So the Catholic Church did not give us the Bible. However, Catholic monks helped preserve the Bible by copying it.
The Catholic Church based in Rome (which I call the RCC) tried to keep the Bible away from Christians. The RCC - until 1962’s Vatican 2 - did not allow normal Catholics to drink “the blood of Christ” during the Eucharist, fearing they might spill of bit.
On October 28, 312 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine met with Bishop Miltiades. (Catholics would later refer to him as Pope Miltiades. But at the time he was known as the Bishop of Rome.) Miltiades was assisted by Silvester, a Roman who spoke educated Latin, and acted as interpreter. The previous day, Constantine had seen a sign in the heavens: a cross in front of the sun. He heard a voice say, “In this sign you will conquer.” He painted crosses on the shields of his soldiers. He won an important battle, and was convinced that it was because of the power of the sign that he had seen. He asked for two of the nails that were used to crucify Jesus. One nail was made into a bit for his horse. Another nail was made a part of his crown, signifying that Constantine ruled the Roman Empire in the name of Jesus. He allowed Miltiades to keep the third nail.
Before Constantine’s “conversion,” Christians were persecuted. Now, instead of facing persecution, Bishop Silvester lived in the lap of luxury. He had a beautiful palace, with the finest furniture and art. He wore silk brocade robes. He had servants to wait on him. Near his palace was a basilica which was to serve as his cathedral. This luxurious building had seven altars made of gold, a canopy of solid silver above the main altar, and 50 chandeliers. The imperial mail system and transportation system were placed at Silvester’s disposal. It was now possible to have worldwide church councils.
After Constantine’s “conversion,” the Church was radically changed. Suddenly, being Christian resulted in power, prestige, and promotion (whereas previously it had resulted in persecution). Suddenly, by the Emperor’s decree, Christianity became “politically correct”. So ambitious people joined the Church for worldly reasons. The Bishop of Rome was supported by the military might, political power, and wealth of the Roman Emperor. Worldwide church councils were convened.
This was the birth of the Roman Catholic Church. It was created in the year 314 A.D. by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester.
Do you hold to all the statements in the Council of Trent, declaring man-made traditions to be LAW and all who fail to agree are “anathema!”? If so, you are bound by man’s traditions and not free in Christ.
This is total nonsense and you know it.
Who are these many “people”? The blind deaf and illiterate!
Historical records and writings are not that hard to find in this day and age.Read the actual writings and not someone else’s opinion of them.
Furthermore, Constantine did not have influence over the Church. If he did you would have not have seen the Divinity of Christ declared dogma at the Council of Nicea because Constantine as an Arian did not believe in the Divinity of Christ
I can pull up thousand of writings to prove that the early Christians believed the same things as Catholic’s do today.
Dear Friend , you would be better off spending your time loving others rather than spreading lies about the Catholic Church.
What you’re doing here is spreading lies, NOT the work of God!
Spend some time researching history and perhaps we will converse at a later time.
I wish you peace of mind!
It appears you believe only what the RCC proclaims, despite its history of being no more pure than any other organization of man. Where is a non-RCC source that claims Peter was a pope, or that 2nd century Christians thought themselves to be Catholics in the Roman mold? I’ve looked and found nothing that lines up the RCC version of early history. You call people who don’t line up with the RCC names - the last resort of one without an argument. As Shakespeare wrote for one of his characters, “Methinks you do protest too much.”
I believe only the Word of God and things man may write that line up under His Word. No where in the Bible do we see the office of Pope, nor the central control of churches by man, not the approved communion with dead people, nor the approval of God in calling man “Father” (in the spiritual sense), nor looking to man as an intermediary with the Lord.
In these important issues, the RCC has made up doctrine and used it to control people. That is a shame.
A huge error occurs when one elevates his OWN interpretations of Scripture above 2000 plus years of consistent teachings from the early Church Fathers and people such as Saint Iganatius and Polycarp who were Disciples of the Apostles.
This huge error has produces thousands of denominations separated from the Body of Christ.
I wish you a Blessed day
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