Posted on 12/31/2007 11:46:28 AM PST by NYer
I stand corrected...good catch. We still are not idolizing her at the mass though.
Ten-four.
Of course we’re not idolizing her ———I get so tired of that old canard!
This occurred to me when my husband was telling our boys to take off their baseball caps in a restaurant. This developed into a discussion of customs and courtesy, deference, respect, and so forth. My sons were surprised to hear that Sir Thomas More, when he was the King's highest official in England, nevertheless went to a lower court and there, before the lawyers, knelt before his father every day and asked for his blessing.
My point is that for most of our history, there were forms of honor --- kneeling, bowing, curtseying, kissing --- which were customary throughout society. Kneeling to your father was not mistaken for adoration or idolatry, any more than it is now thought adoration for a diplomat to bow and kiss a sovereign's ring, or idolatry for suitor to kneel and ask for his beloved's hand in marriage.
Ancient forms of Faith are of course conservative. So at a Catholic High Mass you have bowing to everything and everybody associated with God (the altar, the Gospel-book, the Baptismal font, the deacon, the subdeacon, the choir, the people in the pews.)
In Orthodox churches you not only have all that kissing and bowing, but all the members of the congregation kneel and even prostrate before each other on Forgiveness Sunday asking for pardon for the offenses of the past year.
I find all the gestures touching. I have to. I am a human being with a heart of flesh, not stone.
"Too much," says the modern American.
But who is closer to the Old Testament culture here? I looked up "kneel(ing)" and "bow(ing)" in the good old BibleGateway Keyword Search, and found so many references it would be exhausting to list them all.
Because the commandment clearly forbids bowing and worshipping a creature as the Creator; it does not forbid kneeling or bowing (to king, prophet, father, husband or brother) as a form of honor.
The commandment does not prohibit kneeling or bowing to give human honor. It prohibits adoration toward anyone but Almighty God.
Now here's an interesting episode:
1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
Here's the King bowing to his mother. Does that mean she's equal to God? No. It doesn't even mean she's equal to the King. It means he's pleased to honor her because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.
As our mindset gets further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder and harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (he salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsey, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.
It's something to ponder and appreciate. As I live, I appreciate it more and more.
Thanks so much for the valuable research and insight!
Maybe you should post it on its own thread. ;-)
Bless you for your charity, but I think the pieties that you believe are misunderstood are actually a stalking horse for the "Eliabs" around here.
Eliab the eldest brother of David.
You know. The one who claimed to know David’s heart as a basis for making accusation against him. The one who is forever recorded in the Bible as the guy who knew the man after God’s own heart better than God did ;o)
And to you and yours, a happy, great 2K8.
I don’t believe in it, but I don’t consider it idolatry either.
Thank you. The voice of reason: so refreshing.
**..which are the prayers of the saints.**
The KJV says: “..which are the prayers of saints.”
Both versions say ‘of’, not ‘to’.
The prayers are not to them, but are prayers by them.
The saints are those sanctified, born of the Holy Ghost.
Paul wrote to several of the churches he helped establish, addressing them: “to the saints at...”.
But along comes ‘tradition’ of the RCC, to make superheros of certain people.
Not unlike the craftsmen of Ephesus, who made a ruckus because Paul was teaching the people there to lay down their dumb idols, there is no doubt money to be made with statues, carvings, paintings, etc. of these select “saints”.
A few weeks ago, I delivered a semi load of little chain medalions, that had some ‘saints’ images on them, from a Chicago warehouse to a distribution center in Iowa. These items were stamped ‘made in China’ (cheap labor).
**Mother of God**
What Mary gave birth to died. Diety can not die. Not even for a few minutes.
But God raised up Jesus. The Father was in him ‘doing the works’. “..him hath God raised up.” “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself”. The fulness of the Godhead is found even now in Jesus Christ.
It was the Spirit of God in Christ that gave him deity. Mary’s womb did not make the Spirit.
Prayers for all the non-believers.
Non-believers of what?
How tragic that so many fail to realize the gift Mary gave to the world.
Some may contend that it is the gift of Christ that was given to Mary (and us all ) as opposed to the gife Mary gave to mankind. Semantics, I fully realize, but I believe it to be God’s gift.
The “some” people are those to whom John describes in his Revelation, too numerous to count. Some saints have great celebrity; others do not. What do you know about Apollos, for whom Paul expressed such admiration? Most are known but to God. The Church even has a special day, All Saints Day, because the number is too great to count. As to the statutes. pictures etc which you scorn, they are made because people want to have them, because they feel a special connection. We buy holy pictures for much the same reason why we buy pictures of our other loved ones, and our secular heroes. Heroes are people one looks up to, because they have done what we can only wish to have done. They inspire us. They turn our thought away from the mundane, to God.
26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.
The actual Greek word used is kecharitomene. According to what I have read (easily googled) it means having the fullness of Grace. A unique word for a unique woman - note the word woman.
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