Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
[[And for the record, Jude is written to Christians who had false teachers in their midst. They were not pagans, but people who had accepted Christ and were now teaching some other gospel then what the apostles taught.]]
They were NOT saved- they were apostates- there is NO getting around htis- They crept in UNAWARES- they were never born again- Jude makes this VERY clear- You have just assigned somethign to them that was NEVER mentioned and infact was specifically pointed out htat they were APOSTATES- not saved-
[[I agree. And all of those in the Church are saved, by the definition of the Bible. A person who has become baptized and accepted the Lord as their savior has their sins forgiven.]
You have NO evidence ot hsow that htey ever accepted Christ as Savior- You are ASSUMING- The gospels NEVER mention that the ones Paul is referring to EVER accepted Salvation- only that they made a profession of a reformation through baptism- in order for your opinion to be the correct one- you absolutely NEED for EVERYONE in those churches to have been saved, and therefore, the passages would then mean one could lose salvation as there would be no ther possibility- You can NOT show however that EVERYONE in the churches were saved- all you can do is assume- The scriptires talk about folks who fell away, and Paul and the apostles talked at great length about coming close, but NEVER gettin to the mark- which is contrary to your ‘everyone was saved’ assumptions.
[[Those in the Church are the People of God, the saved, past tense.]]
You have NOTHING to back that statement up- and quite frankly, arguing htis point with you is becoming tiring as you keep insisting womethign you can neither prove nor show from the scriptures. You position is unsupportable- and every verse you’ve used to try to support your position is either taken out of context or is assigned insinuations that simply are NOT present in the verses.
[[As you note, the parable of the wheat and the tares tells us this very same thing that you continue to ignore: people are saved, and then fall away and become unsaved because they did not persevere in faith.]]
NO- people are ILLUMINED- there is NO evidence they are ever saved- none- it’s an imagination of your own making to say that they are.
[[All of that is sophistry. We are saved. Period. None of this going back and declaring it “never took”.]]
Now you’re making up a rabbit trail argument assigning false statements to me and to OSAS- OSAS doesn’t argue about whether or not something ‘took’ and agrees wholly with you that IF a person repents with their heart and asks Christ to be saved IS saved- end of story- you are misrepresenting OSAS itnentionally I think to get the focus off the fact that you can’t show that EVERYONE in church is saved and Paul was addressing saved persons only and always.
[[I am sad that you cannot see the Word of God for what it is.]]
What you are sad about is hte fact that i do not aggree with your OPINION about an issue that you need to make assumptions in order to support. And accusing a person of heresy because they dissagree over a unclear issue IS an insult of the highest degree- no matter how you try to downplay it.
[[Which is why OSAS fails the litmus test of Scriptures. The Bible does not note it, the earliest Christians didn’t believe it, the Church Fathers never believed it.]]
Sorry- but hte ealiest Christians DID beleive it because ALL the writers spoke about eternal salvation and they fully understood justy who Paul and others were referrign to when they spoke warnings to the apostates WITHIN the church!
[[Hebrews 10:28-29 clearly explodes the myth of OSAS. I do not know why you cannot see that, except for some emotional attachment to a false gospel.]]
False gospel? You’ve done NOTHING to show that everyoen was saved i nthe churches- I’ve challenged you several times to do so and you’ve failed to do so preferring to rather accuse me of presentign a false gospel instead.
[[And obviously, it is possible. There would be no need to talk about people losing salvation if it were not possible.]]
Ah- now you’re telling Paul that he had no need to show that eternal salvation was eternal precisely because to lose salvation then to regain salvation was to put Christ to the cross a second time, meaninging that obviously His death and blood were not sufficient to give salvation eternal- This was the whole Crux of Paul’s hypothetical yet impossible example of IF a person coudl lose salvation sermon.
[[God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also – not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ ]]
First off you are addressing somethign that has NO relevence to the passages were discussing- I asked you if the passages we were addressing mentioned baptism- they did not- I didn’t ask you about the old testament- Secondly baptism is NOT salvation- Christ’s death is Salvation- period- Baptism is simply a public profession of good will toward God- that’s it! An unsaved persona absolutely CAN and they DO make those professions ALL the time- and Paul was warnign htose hwo make that profession and who get close to salvation that IF they turn apostate, they will pay a huge price in hell for it- The scriptures are clear on this- Brushing it aside won’t do here!
[[Paul’s letters were not handwritten and placed on the door posts of every person in the city. Tracts were not handed out to people in the streets. Things were done differently back then. People evangelized on a personal level. The Scriptures were given to the saved.]]
Ah, now you’re inventing history to suit your position! The church was NOT made up of all savved people- you have NO scripture to show this and infact I can and have shown that this is a false ideology to htink they were. But again, your position hinges on EVERY PERSON being saved i nthe church- so I can see why the fierce insistence that they were- your position falls apart if they weren’t all saved.
[[You are being anachronistic. Churches didn’t act as they do now. They didn’t throw their doors of worship to the enquiring mind. The sacred was not meant for the profane eyes.]]
No, of course they were not- that’s why Paul and other wirters to churches had to rebuke them for allowing the profane to infect their church- whoops-
[[There were deacons who REMOVED people from the assembly if they were NOT part baptized in those days. Just as Temple worship was restricted to only the People of God, worship of God at the Eucharist was restricted to only the saved.]]
The restriction of the eucharist has NOTHING to do with the body of the visible church- the eucharist was indeed ONLY for the saved, the message however was for EVERYONE- Saved or not.
[[That’s a pretty big assumption on your part. If a person is illuminated, as you say, then what is to say they did NOT become baptized? Where does the Bible make the statement that these people never were baptized?]]
You keep bringing up baptism- Baptism is not salvation- as explained ad nauseum.
[[I think there is a difference between “being saved” and “being His”. Again, this goes to the confusion of the various definitions of salvation.]]
And yet you insist EVERYONE in church in old times were His- saved- otherwise thjey could not lose their inherritrence if they were not His- Saved- Past tense. Yes, people in church who have yet to make the the Lord their personal Lord and savior, but however are very itnerested, are BEING SAVED, being Illuminated, and Yes- these people can and DO fall away all the time- the net is full of vitriolic apostates who have done just that- got close and then turned apostate- But you go a step further stating somethign hte bible doesn’t support that these ‘being saved’ people these ‘being illuminated’ people are Saved- past tense- done deal- not so.
[[But that doesn’t mean that person will CONTINUE in the Spirit until the end. The Bible only holds out the hope that God will be there IF and ONLY IF we persevere. If we willingly sin grieviously, we are jeopardizing our salvation initially won]]
No sir because that is absolutely contrary to God’s word that says salvation is entirely God’s work- not our own- IF we lose our salvation, then WE alone are responsible for our own salvation- NOT Christ. The falling away warnings are written to those as yet unsaved, who are on the straight and narrow path toward salvation, and if they do NOT perservere, they WILL lose the salvation altogether and will never be given the opportunity again. If they turn their back on the Holy Spirit’s promptings to Salvation, they are becoem apostates- having tasted the goodness that salvation could bring IF they were to finally choose it, having participated in the gifts- the lesser gifts afforded those who are seekign salvation, having seen first hand the greatness of salvation, yet, being of hard heart, decide they do NOT want Christ but rather want the protection of, and the respect of the church instead.
You claim that a saved person who loses their salvation can repent at soem future point and that is NOT true-= Paul laid it out absolutely frankly and bluntly that they could NOT regain salvation IF it were even possible to lose their salvastion in the first place- He explained that to do so would render Christ’s sacrifice no better than a common man’s sacrifice, and it would be putting hte whole gospel to shame IF it were possible for someone to lose their salvation and need to crucify Christ again. Paul is quite clear about this. Man can not save himself, and he can NOT crucify Christ many times IF salvation loss were a possibility, which it is not.
Salvation is the forgiveness of sins. Only sins that have been repented of are forgiven, brother. When we are saved, the past sins are erased and forgiven. But what about future sins? Christ is our advocate in heaven, whom we can turn to IF we sin again. However, when if we do NOT ask for forgiveness of sins? Salvation is the forgiveness of sins - and we are being saved only as we ask forgiveness from God.
What sort of salvation is it if we are still enslaved to sinful ways?
Also people who want to believe in a works doctrine really magnify this verse about "can faith save him". They seem to throw out the many many more verses that say that faith does just that.
"Faith" includes a way of life, a walk, "the obedience that comes from faith", as Paul writes to the Romans (twice). When Christ says that faith saves, He is presuming that our life has now changed and we will bear forth the fruit of our faith. In broad terms, faith includes works of love. Without these works of love, our faith is dead, it cannot save. There is no Scriptures that say we do not have to love, do not have to repent, do not have to forgive, do not have to give alms, etc...The Law of Love demands that we do these things.
There are no verses that say we are saved by faith alone.
Regards
Paul was not writing TO THE APOSTATES!
You have NO evidence ot hsow that htey ever accepted Christ as Savior- You are ASSUMING- The gospels NEVER mention that the ones Paul is referring to EVER accepted Salvation-
Rather than answer your now very long post, I would like to stop for a moment and ask you something before we continue.
What is salvation? Give me some Scriptures. That way, when we continue, I can understand what you are trying to defend, because frankly, I am wondering exactly what you think salvation is. It seems like there is a contradiction. First, it seems like you say salvation is something done once. But then, you contradict that by saying salvation was only given to certain people who LATER PROVE themselves. Without this "proof", the original "salvation" never was - and sins were never forgiven.
So give me some Scriptures on what you think salvation is and when it happens.
[[Paul was not writing TO THE APOSTATES!]]
Yes he was- and so was Jude- THey were writing to EVERYONE in the church- encouraging those who were both saved and as yet saved, but struggling toward thd prize, AND he was directly warnign both hte apostates AND those that would concider falling away BEFORE salvation that their lot in eternity will be a VERY severe one after having tasted of what CHrist might have brought them had they accepted Him
[[But then, you contradict that by saying salvation was only given to certain people who LATER PROVE themselves]]
No sir- you’ve either misinterpreted or intentionally misrepresented what I’ve said- I’ve NEVER said people earn salvation- I HAVE said that the Holy Spirit does continually sanctify a person toward salvation, encouraging, convicting, and bringing htem to holiness until the point where they finally surrender their heart to Christ in the once for all Descision to accept Him as Savior
[[Without this “proof”, the original “salvation” never was - and sins were never forgiven]]
“original salvation”? No- there was no original salvation- there was the works of the Holy Spirit moving a person toward salvation until THE salvation event took place.
This is where you are wrong. When one is born again he is repenting of his whole life. The whole entire thing becomes a shame and dung and the whole entire thing is thrown at the foot of the cross. Individual sin repentance would be laughably combersome or laughably ritualistic.
How can you repent of something you haven't done yet? We repent of our PAST life. We make the pledge to change, but that doesn't mean we will obey perfectly the commandments after our salvation. IF that salvation event in the past forgives us of ALL sins, past, present and future, then why does the Bible continue to speak of the forgiveness of sins AFTER Jesus' resurrection?
"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray for him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall cause the one who is sick to be saved, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he shall be forgiven them." James 5:14-15
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
My little children, I write these things unto you, that ye sin not; and if anyone has sinned, we have an Advocate before the Father, Jesus, the righteous Christ 1 John 2:1
And so forth. When we first accept Jesus as our Savior and the forgiveness of sins are offered, our past sins are washed away. Not our future sins. Thus, Scriptures tell us that we have an Advocate in heaven, one who pleads for us to the Father to forgive our CURRENT sins based on the one-time sacrifice that He made for the expiation of sin.
Individual sin repentance would be laughably combersome or laughably ritualistic.
How so? When I sin, I repent and ask God to forgive me of my sins, similarly to the fashion I did when I first came to Him. That is what people do in a relationship. When I offend my wife, I ask forgiveness. Not just once in my entire life, but whenever I falter. Please explain your comment and give some evidence to back it up.
Regards
Are you saying that this was beyond the ability of man to think of something like that beforehand? Considering that the Torah was the center of their cultic worship, along with the Temple, I would hardly think it unlikely that someone would imitate the style of their most treasured work.
It is not only interesting, it is profitable since it is found in scripture and all scripture is profitable.
Yes, it is - but for what purpose?
...profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16,17
God is constantly moving us to dig deeper into His word, as you have rightly said. But I think we can fall into the trap of overspeculation - which was part of Luther's reaction to corrupt Scholasticism. Not sure about the Psalms 119 comment, since the numbering of the Psalms are not inspired by God. Nor are the names of the individual books, such as "Matthew". When first written, they didn't have author's names on top of the book or letter, that was added later.
Regards
Easy, by killing yourself. That is what baptism symbolizes. The spiritual event of being born again has the real effect of making you die to sin and die to self and this is what is pictured in baptism.
Again, you are confusing me. Please answer me "what is salvation"? Above, it appears that you are saying salvation is something attained AFTER STRUGGLING toward the prize. Which salvation are you speaking of? Which salvation makes us part of the Church, part of the community of elect? YOUR definition above, or the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior with our hearts?
How does a person first become saved.
We don't literally die to sin, since we still continue to sin. We are no longer BOUND to sin, we are no longer under the sway of sin, the slavery of sin, we now have a new guiding principle within us, the Holy Spirit:
Likewise also reckon yourselves to be truly dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ, Jesus, our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither present your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but present yourselves unto God as those that are alive from the dead and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. So that sin shall have no dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? No, in no wise. Or know ye not that to whom ye present yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death or of the obedience unto righteousness? Thank God that, although ye were the servants of sin, ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine unto which ye are delivered; and freed from sin, ye are become the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:11-18
As you can see, Paul tells us we are now no longer slaves or servants to sin. He doesn't say we CANNOT sin any longer, he says we SHOULDN'T sin any longer because we have a new "master" to obey. We are now servants of righteousness - and a servant is EXPECTED to obey their master. We are praised for being a good servant when we obey, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be bad servants who will receive a beating for disobedience.
The old man continues to live, as Paul mentions in the next chapter of Romans. We STILL fight against sin - but we are no longer its servant.
Regards
If we literally died to sin, we'd be dead. That's what literally means. But what we are is dead to the damning effects of sin, forever.
Our sin is “as far as the east is from the west” from us. Non Christians often ask why God made such a big universe if it has no other life forms. I think a big part of that is to illustrate the depth of this verse. Now imagine how pointless that verse is if only our past sin is that far from us and we are left to wallow in our continued sin.
Just stumbled upon this thread from last week...I like your post. :)
Thanks.
This thread seems like an awful lot of words to throw at such a subject when you look at it from my perspective.
I’m born, Baptized, raised and schooled as a Catholic. My children have been attending private Christian schools where the Bible is front and center as opposed to the Baltimore Catechism. All of my New American Bibles have been placed away and only the NIV is readily found and read in our home.
I feel guilt, I feel uneducated, I feel betrayed by my first 30 years of seeing life through Catholic eyes, yet I have not severed all of the ties.
I now use only the Bible as my instruction manual.
Good for you.
I’ll pray that God heals your damaged feelings of betrayal and that He might use it to help heal others.
The bigger problem that I pointed to is self-deceit. Men believe they are saved, and believe they are no longer sinning, but looked at objectively this is not the case, and in fact, cannot be.
Biblical christians do not believe that they are sinless. Biblical christians believe that they are forgiven for their sins ...1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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