Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
Parsing of words is a pretty old trick to try to make a case, but I’m sorry, it won’t work.
I cannot recall the last time I saw you, topcat54, posting on any subject other than end times prophesy and in particular, anti-dispensationalism. So I certainly do not expect to change your mind.
Nor can I recall you, Quix, taking anything less than an aggressive pro-dispensationalism and anti-[any degree of] preterism position. Likewise, I certainly do not expect to change your mind.
Nor do I want to. Each of us must follow the Spirit's leading.
After all, there is only one Great Commandment – and it is not exegesis.
First, the Epistle of Barnabas does indeed speak of the seventh 1,000 year interval as a Sabbath rest. Here is chapter 15:3-9 from the Epistle of Barnabas again:
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray. But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first. Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world. Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. – Revelation 19:11-16
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. – Revelation 19:20-21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. – Rev 21:1
Somewhere around the beginning of the dark ages under Gelasius I (approx 490 A.D.) - the Church consolidated power under Rome, asserted papal supremacy and enlivened a practice dating back to at least St. Philastrius circa 380 of cataloguing heresies, dogging and condemning heretics and destroying documents, even ancient manuscripts containing things they hated even if they were loved by the earliest Christians. Earlier still is the evidence of the Papacy of Damasus I (circa 366) in this document, The “Decretum Gelasianum de Libris Recipiendis et non Recipiendis”:. Enoch is the best example as it was loved by the early Christians, quoted both directly and indirectly in the New Testament some 100 times but nevertheless rejected and destroyed by the Church and therefore lost until rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1775 and confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls with copies carbon-dated to 200 B.C.
For this very reason, whenever one of my Catholic brothers or sisters in Christ declares "the Church always believed.." I'm quick to say, "not so fast." The memory of the Catholic church is selective, to say the least.
Truly, the Reformers embraced a number of the doctrines and traditions of the councils of the Church – but certainly could not have been expected to arrive at a decision about doctrines the Church had subordinated or rejected, especially when affirmations of those ancient beliefs were contained in documents the Church intentionally sought to destroy.
And truly, if the indwelling Spirit had not led me to read ancient manuscripts, I would have no opinion of them either. The Spirit does not authenticate pseudepigrapha to me in the same way He authenticates the canon, which is to say that the Scriptures are pure albeit incomplete (Daniel 12, Revelation 10). But He does lead me to gather insights from them, much like He leads me to the writings or words of other people, having them “ring true” in the spirit. The insights I’ve gathered so far from the pseudepigraphal documents: events preceding Abraham’s being called, how Job got into trouble with Satan, the background of Genesis 6 and the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. All of these amplify Truths revealed by the Spirit and confirmed in Scripture. None of them “stand alone” nor are they equal to Scripture.
No doubt many on the ping list also experience the spirit “ringing true” when reading the writings of certain religious leaders, catechisms etc. – listening to sermons, etc. I have the same experience from some of the postings on this forum. One of my favorite examples of “ringing true” is when a little blue-haired lady commented in church just after the preacher had delivered a sermon on Peter’s sinking on his way to Jesus that, “sinking wasn’t his job.”
Likewise, the Epistle of Barnabas merely underscores certain Truth which is in Scripture – connecting dots much like the Westminster Confession of Faith connects dots. In this case, the dots include: God appointed a Sabbath (Genesis) God’s day is one thousand years to man (Genesis 2:17 and 5:5; Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8) Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20.) It connects those dots, very noticeably, in the early years of the church. Moreover, the belief in a 7,000 year allotment of time to Adamic man is Jewish - ancient by any definition.
Truly, if a doctrine doesn't pass the Berean test (Acts 17) - you should ignore it. If it declares Jesus Christ is not Lord - you should ignore it (I John 4). And if all of the fruits of the Spirit are not evident in the speaker (Galatians 5, Matthew 7) - you should ignore it.
Likewise here, whether ancient manuscripts, catechisms, commentaries, correspondence, sermons or conversation - if the insights of others do not “ring true” by the Spirit’s leading, you should ignore them, too.
Jesus says "follow me." We must, each and every one of us, go where He leads us. That's the important part.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9
Pray without ceasing. - I Th 5:17
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. – Proverbs 3:5-6
Like that trick of trying to change just one little word to make the text say what you want it to -- Halloween is over -- no treat for you.
You can’t be serious.
I'm sure he is. We've seen plenty of this sort of gnat straining.
Oddly, these are the verses you referenced...
This may hurt your eyes so I suggest putting some dark glasses on...The light here is going to get pretty bright...
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
The fullness of times is not here yet...AND, it's called a Dispensation...That's in contrast to the Dispensation we currently live in...
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Do you see the word King anywhere??? How about reign??? Jesus is sitting in Heaven as the High Priest...The Minister...
He is not YET reigning as King...
He will not reign as King until He sits on the earthly Throne of David after the Dispensation of the fullness of times...
And that Dispensation includes the NEW, yet to come covenant with Israel...
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
And that's when the MILLENIUM starts and Jesus reigns as King of Kings...
“Like that trick of trying to change just one little word to make the text say what you want it to...”
Oh, you mean, for example, changing “this” generation to mean “that” generation and “near” to mean “2,000 plus years from now”?
I’ve seen a lot of that from people who are “anxious for Armageddon,” and it sure works for them — just well enough to make the Bible say what they want it to.
I'm afraid you are not reading all the Bible, just selective portions. Paul's meaning becomes clear when you compare it with other passages:
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law," (Gal. 4:4).
Note the phrase "had come". It was obvious to Paul that the [dispensation of the] fullness of time was the present age in which we now live. My definition of "dispensation" is consistent with this truth.
Do you see the word King anywhere??? How about reign??? Jesus is sitting in Heaven as the High Priest...The Minister... He is not YET reigning as King...
You obviously do not understand that Jesus is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:17). Who was Melchizedek? The king-priest of Salem (Gen. 14:18). If He is after the order of Melchizedek then He must also be reigning as King. This is the radical distinction between the old covenant priesthood and the new. And Christ’s disciples are also king-priests since we are reigning with Him (Rev. 5:10).
Peter confirmed in Acts 2 that Christ was raised up from the dead and seated on David’s throne in heaven, the proof of which was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
If Christ is not now reigning, then the gentiles have no hope (Rom. 15:12).
You must read all the Bible to get the correct picture. I’ll let you go back and factor in that additional info.
Now, that doesn't mean that Satan is bound since he is the God of this …
Satan is bound in the future, at …
But you are denying what you just affirmed. It says "bind" not "overcome". Same Greek word in Matt 12 and Rev. 20. Same object, Satan. Satan is the strong man, and Jesus said the strong man must be bound for his kingdom to be plundered, which is evidence that the kingdom had come, and all that is true. Then you turn around and say that Satan is not bound.
It’s an odd theology that forces you into that position.
You can find all of this in the Scofield notes.
Well, finally a word of truth.
Why do you guys just make stuff up all the time??? He is not sitting on David's throne. He is sitting on the right hand of His Father's throne, until His Father sends him back to sit on David's throne in Jerusalem.
So then when was the strong man bound??? in 30 AD??? or sometime after John wrote Revelation????
“So, Satan isn’t bound today, he is he god of this world, who still deceives it.”
You know, maybe because Satan is created and not omniscient he does not recognize he is bound; kind of like a spiritual thing, like clouds.
2 Cor. 2:11, “Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.”
2 Cor. 11:14, “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”
Eph. 6:11, “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.”
James 4:7, “....Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
1 Pet. 5:8, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”
And, of course, my all time favorite:
Rev. 12:9,”And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (12) “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
And this problematic verse:
Rev. 20:2, “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,”
How many times can you bind him? Any way, if you need more let me know.
I wonder if it would save a lot of us a lot of time . . .
IF
you’d be willing to share what happened the 12 months and especially the 4 months just prior to your leaving the
Dispy church you reportedly once attended.
= = =
They all do that.
I was shocked when the more rational amongst the Replacementarians refused to consider even the possibility that things Scripture VERY CLEARLY SAYS WILL COME TO PASS IN THE END TIMES
AND WHICH VERY OBVIOUSLY DID NOT OCCUR IN AD 70 NOR ANY OTHER TIME the last 2,000 years . . .
when such a normally ratioinal person denies, dismisses that such MIGHT JUST OCCUR IN THEIR LIFETIME . . .
it boggles my mind.
I have said what my boundaries on my construction on prophetic reality are . . . approximately 2075--roughly 125 years after Israel became a nation in 1948. I figure, by then, every last cohort would likely be dead of normal causes IF these are not the true BIBLICAL END TIMES.
However, I also noted that given quite a number of trend lines related to specific Biblical END TIMES prophecies, I can't see things lasting near that long.
Well before then, we are going to have a world government.
Well before then, we will have the Mark of The Beast.
Well before then, the nations under the Anti-Christ will try and utterly destroy Israel forever.
Well before then, the Anti-Christ will abolish all other religions and demand to be worshipped as God.
The handwriting is on the wall in neon lights even if I weren't a Chrisstian--I could STILL read Scripture and notice how much of it was coming true in the daily newspapers of our era.
Shoot, a computer could be prorammed in a fair-minded way and reach the same conclusions.
AND THEN I posted the whole article about the world money system being vigorously defended by the CFR fellow as the only way to go etc. etc.
Still not a peep from those who pretend to be fair minded and reasonable.
And they expect us to think something of their REASONing(s)????
What a farce. What a joke. What a charade.
Shrillery Klintoon makes more sense--well--sometimes.
"And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." (Romans 16:20)
My mistake. The one verse I meant to reference was Eph. 1:20, not 1:10. But I'm glad I had the opportunity to explain the correct interpretation of 1:10 as well.
“And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.” (Romans 16:20)
Now this was written about 55 A.D. Was Satan crushed under their feet then, or is “shortly”, like “these last days”, or like “this generation”?
Revelation says Satan is to be bound sometime in the future or is he bound now?
Yes and yes. All three phrases refer to happenings in the first century. It stretches credibility to suggest that "shortly" means some long indeterminate time in the future, at least several thousands years. Just as it stretches credibility to suggest that "this generation" really means "that generation".
Regarding the meaning of phrases like "last days", see Acts 2:17; Heb. 1:2; and 1 John 2:18.
Revelation says Satan is to be bound sometime in the future or is he bound now?
If you allow the Bible to interpret itself, Satan is bound now from deceiving the nations.
I still find it shocking that ANY Replacementarian can actually honestly believe that . . . with a straight face.
1. SCRIPTURE INDICATES REDUNDANTLY that in THESE END TIMES, the love of many will grow cold;
2. lawlessness will increase
. . .
3. DECEPTION SO INTENSE, CLEVER, PERVASIVE THAT IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, THE VERY ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED is slated for THIS END TIMES ERA.
4. INDEED, THAT IS WHAT WE FIND.
. . .
5. WHOLE DENOMINATIONS--WITNESS THE EPISCOPAL/ANGLICAN--ARE DELUDED, DECEIVED that infanticide is wonderful.
6. WHOLE DENOMINATIONS--WITNESS THE EPISCOPAL/ANGLICAN--ARE DELUDED, DECEIVED that homosexual relationships, behavior and even marriage and ordained lesbian priests and bishops are wonderful.
. . .
7. MAJOR CHUNKS OF CHRISTENDOM ARE ALREADY and more are in the process of being DECEIVED, DELUDED that globalism/socialism/communism and a tyrannical world government will be wonderful.
8. ALL the major social institutions of WESTERN SOCIETY have been deceived, deluded into believing and teaching the masses that THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG; WHATEVER FEELS GOOD; DO IT; THE CONSTITUTION AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS RELATIVE--THE PRESS; THE UNDIVERSITIES; K-12 EDUCATION; THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY; MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CONGLOMERATES; SO CALLED SCIENCE; HOLLYWEED; INTERNATIONAL LABOR; INTERNATIONAL AID {have you listened to the Mary Knoll ad lately? ONE WORLD it declares repeatedly] . . . the list grows week by week.
. . .
9. RINO AFTER RINO pontificates under the GOP umbrella pretending to be different from the traitorous DIMRATS. And Replacementarians think satan STOPPED deluding folks in AD70????? Do words and reason mean ANYTHING any more????
10. EVIL IS CALLED GOOD AND GOOD IS CALLED EVIL INCREASINGLY IN EVERY arena in the Western World around the globe and particularly in NorthAm and Europe. Yet Replacementarian Preterists would have us believe that DECEPTION STOPPED in AD 70 and satan went fishing? WHO ON EARTH DO THEY THINK DRIVES SHRILLERY????? It boggles my mind!
. . .
I'm incredulous . . . flabbergasted. I never thought I'd see the day when anyone claiming honestly to be any kind of Christian would imagine to say such a thing.
And to do so in the face of such intense and wide spred proof--not just evidence--PROOF of the contrary--is just beyond . . . words fail me. God have mercy.
GOD HAVE MERCY.
Passages such as the ones blue-duncan quoted in 951 would have to be ignored to believe Satan is bound. And current events such as Quix cited in 958 stand in evidence that mankind is increasingly turning away from the righteousness of God.
Atheism is being promoted on the public dole thanks to a few very unfortunate Supreme Court decisions.
Maranatha, Jesus!!!
It meant the generation He was speaking about, which were Jews, not Christians.
Why would Christians be concerned about fleeing on the sabbath?
'This'-the person or thing mentioned-Webster's New World Dictionary.
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