Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
ping to #36 & #40
With all due respect, you are avoiding the issue, vis. that dispensationalists use the word "dispensation" in an entirely different manner than does the Bible.
The Bible never refers to Eden as a dispensation of anything. You know that and I know that. I’m not going to argue with your non responses to my point.
Most of Hanegraff’s show is him trying to get you to either
a) buy his newest book
b) give CRI money so he can use radio time to get you to buy his newest book.
I take it you haven’t listened to the show, then. You may want to sometime. Even if you don’t like him personally, his show usually has well-known and respected guests (such as Lee Strobel, Joni Earekson-Tada, R.C. Sproul).
You did not answer the question:
Was Eden a separate period or was it not? Yes or no.
And you are using the question to avoid the simple fact that your definition of "dispensation" does not match the Bible’s.
Eden was not a "dispensation" according to the way the Bible uses the phrase.
Fear.
You know what the truth is, and you are afraid to answer the question.
The phenomenon is real.
Was Eden a separate period or was it not?
You can try it but it won't work.
I noticed you are doing a great job of ducking the real issue, that dispensationalism has nothing to do with a biblical notion of "dispensation", with your question.
The smell of fear in the afternoon....ahhhhhhh.
Answer the question which came first. You already have been given the data about Eph 1:10 twice. Once this thread and once on another. That’s why I know the odor that’s in the air.
Is Eden a separate period? Yes or No.
No, because it still exists.
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
non-responsive
“Was the Garden of Eden a unique period of time in the bible?”
I think it was unique, but not in the way you think, if I understand where you’re going with this.
My understanding is the word “dispensation” in the Bible means administration. You mentioned Eph. 1:10: “to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.”
That’s the NIV translation, “into effect” or “dispensed” or “administered.”
To my knowledge at least, the other verses that contain the word “dispensation” (and there aren’t many of them) don’t concern time at all.
So, you agree that Eden was a unique period of time.
Good.
What word would you use to describe “unique period of time?”
Thanks for the ping to this engaging sidebar, dear brother in Christ!
It was unique because it was before the fall. Not a “dispensation” as you believe. We were all born in Adam but we are born again in Christ by faith alone (Romans 5:12).
There have been only two covenants, works and grace, and there is and has always been only ONE olive tree (Romans 11).
The belief of dispensationalism that there are two separate peoples of God and, therefore, two plans for salvation I believe is totally unbiblical. God saved a remnant of Jewish believers, those who had the spirit of Christ within them. The NT gentile believers were an expansion of that remnant.
You still are not seeing the point.
You have agreed that “Eden” is a separate period in the Bible.
I could ask what things made it separate.
Instead, I asked what you would name the phenomenon of “a separate period” in the Bible.
What would you name that kind of defined period?
It’s very like talking with a Roman Catholic, isn’t it? Try to talk Bible, and all you get is unshakable dogma.
Eph 1:10 clearly uses the term oikonomia in the broader sense of “economy.” There really is little doubt of that.
The reality of separate periods of time revealed in the Bible’s survey of religious history cannot be denied.
Am I the one who’s being stubborn here???
Nope. Earlier systematicians and theologians had no hesitation in using “dispensation” to describe the differing stewardship-arrangements that are undeniable in Scripture. It’s only now, with the deadly-earnest commitment to preserve an unbiblical tradition against its Biblical challenger, that scoffers shrink from its use.
The irony: dispensations are not the distinguishing aspect of dispensationalism, any more than the rapture. ALL CHRISTIANS affirm dispensations, as ALL CHRISTIANS affirm the rapture.
Not sure how early you are talking about, but the common usage (if there was one) had to do with the distinction between what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The Westminster Confession has this language:
5. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the gospel: under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come; which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the old testament.The Westminsterian position is that there is one covenant of grace under two "dispensations", the Old and New Testaments. Thus it was common to speak of the "New Testament dispensation".6. Under the gospel, when Christ, the substance, was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper: which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the new testament. There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations. (Chapter 7)
I know of no use of that term different from which agrees with the dispensational view Westminster prior to the appearance of JN Darby. E.g., no one before Darby would have made a theological distinction between the "dispensation of Noah" and the "dispensation of Moses".
But if you have some specific reference, I would enjoy seeing it.
ALL CHRISTIANS affirm dispensations, as ALL CHRISTIANS affirm the rapture.
Most Christians affirm the concept of "dispensations" as described above by Westminster. All orthodox Christians affirm the second coming of Christ. We have no need to differentiate what the moderns have come to call the "rapture", which usually is qualified with the words "pre-trib" by those who use it extensively.
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