Italy's Padre Pio 'faked his stigmata with acid'

Telegraph ^ | October 24, 2007 | Malcolm Moore

[Dr. Eckleburg]

His (Luther's) tomb has a prayer to her engraved on it

That is not true. It was exposed as a lie a couple of years ago on the RF. I'll look for the thread.

[HarleyD]

So should we never pray to Jesus for knowledge?

I didn't say that now did I?

What sorts of things can we pray for that don't involve auto-suggestion? (I'd like an automobile, please.

If we spent more time praying that God's will would be done and less time on our own will, then we wouldn't have a problem with auto-suggestions.

Um who's the patron saint of Lottery tickets?

I Googled "saints lottery tickets" and got St Paul of Minnesota so I guess he's it.

Now the contention is that, even though faith in Jesus is salvific and nothing else is, asking Jesus to enlighten one's mind about Mary is dangerous. So trust Him, but not too much?

This is the way heresies and apostasies have started. By some wacky "feeling" idea. It is pure Gnostic to think God is going to reveal a truth to you that He hasn't revealed in scripture. Isn't that what the Church always complains that Protestants do? At least we have it in writing.

But, you know, there actually are, on the face of the earth and known to me personally, devout Catholics who are not superstitious, sexually conflicted, emotionally driven simpletons.

You either go with the Church as your authority and if the Church tells you to pray to Mary then have at it; or you go with the scriptures and if they tell you not to pray to anyone but the Father than have at it. But to say "Pray that Jesus would reveal His truth to you about Mary." is La-La Land. It is either revealed through the scripture or the Church; it is not an individual experience. That is Gnosticism.

We believe that God does miracles and we see them all around.

Why do you need a miracle?

[Uri’el-2012]

ETH>SIN IS PASSED BY THE FATHER NOT HE MOTHER...DO YOU KNOW ANY THEOLOGY?

This, BTW, is complete nonsense, and is found nowhere in Scripture.

Made-up false tradition of men, nothing more.

There are four things that are important here:

1. Miriam is a daughter who has no brothers
and is descended from King David.

2. Joseph is descended from King David.
But he is from a line prohibited to inherit.

3. The inheritance exception granted for the daughters of Zelophehad
(These were daughters who had no brothers)
is in effect (Numbers 26,27,36; Joshua 17; 1 Chronicles 7 ).

4. Joseph and Miriam are married ( each descended from King David)
thus providing Miriam with permanent inheritance
of the Kingship of David for her to pass on to her son Yah'shua.

b'shem Yah'shua

[ears_to_hear]

And evidently you did, without doing your research first. To say
The Catholic church thinks sex is sinful is so vague and yet sweeping. Do you mean the Church TEACHES that sex is sinful, or SOME members think sex is sinful or what EXACTLY do you mean? DO you have an exact meaning?

There are a couple. The fact that married priests were told not to have sex before they said mass,. and then there is the tradition of "churching" which was to clean a woman from sin after child birth. But mostly and significantly it is the absolute need to keep poor Mary a virgin FOREVER .That is so she remains pure and 'undefiled' in the eyes of men

Similarly, chaste intercourse, that is, loving sexual intercourse with one's spouse and open to life and consecrated virginity are both virtuous.But since in heaven "they neither marry nor are given in marriage", as my ouija board says, consecrated virginity is what you might call a "higher" estate, bieng more like the heavenly state,in certain sense. (For example, no mother-in-law.) Not all consecrated virgins are "higher" than chaste spouses, but the situation is "higher". Paul says something about this.

Paul is talking about men in ministry I believe.

So it is"chaste" and loving to have intercourse between spouses BUT it is MORE holy to deny your spouse? Mary was NOT in heaven as the mother of Jesus she was a flesh and blood woman, she had a husband. You make her a human demi god. If God intended her to remain a virgin he would not have given her a husband.

But as to the "MUST", I'm not sure what you mean.

I said MUST because Catholics have mini seizures when one suggests she may have has a chase and loving sexual relationship with her husband..so it is CLEAR that to Catholics she MUST remain a virgin

As for me, my salvation and my eternity do not rest on this question, Jesus has already said he loves me as much as his mother and I have a normal marriage :)

[ears_to_hear]

Did you get your “had to remain a perpetual Virgin” from the same place you got the false accusation about sex?

So you will admit maybe Mary was not a perpetual virgin? That maybe she bore other sons for her husband as would be the desire and custom in Israel?

[ears_to_hear]

BUMP!

[Running On Empty]

“...maybe Mary was a space alien and jesus (sic) was an in vitro conception”....

It’s right about now that I know that an occasional visit to the FR religion forum isn’t the best stewardship of my time. I came to see the wisdom of that some months ago, and
failed to respond fully to my inner convictions as I should have.

I will say again what I posted some months ago: it wasn’t until I came upon the FR religion forum that I was even aware of or came close to understanding the attitude that (some) Protestants have towards the Catholic Church, and by inference then, towards those who are members of it.

It has been an eye-opener for me—and a very unpleasant one. And it has provided me a window into attitudes that have been for me—as my Alabama born-and-bred granddaughter would say—”very off-putting”.

And so, as Andrea Boccelli would sing—it’s “Time To Say Good-bye”

[Uri’el-2012]

I'm very saddened that you are so willing to accept the empty words
of man's tradition
and reject the Holy Word of Elohim : Yah'shua

I'm sure that all those who you claim are bashing the roman church
and your self, want nothing more than for you to come to know YHvH,
the creator of the universe and His Right Arm: Yah'shua

[Uncle Chip]

he himself said that praying the "Hail Mary" was a fine thing to do

Some old Catholic habits are hard to break after all those years riding with those "Papist donkeys", don't you think?

You guys claim Luther for your side. The real Luther would spew you out of his mouth and come back to Rome in an instant, if he could see what he had wrought.

Does that mean that he still has a chance for Catholic sainthood, or atleast the hope that some trick-or-treaters from Saint Wittenburg's won't be anathematized for wearing his old Augustinian monk costume [the one without the devil horns in the cap] this coming Reformation Day?

[Running On Empty]

Don’t be sad for me.

I come before Him singing for joy.

I belong to Him.

[Running On Empty]

PS

I think it’s not right for you to assume that I am... “so willing to accept the empty words of man’s tradition and reject the Holy Word of Elohim”.......

That is tantamount to reading my mind—you have no way of knowing what I accept and/or reject and yet you take it upon yourself to tell me.

If the Moderator isn’t taking the day off, perhaps s/he will take notice.

[ears_to_hear]

SIN IS PASSED BY THE FATHER NOT HE MOTHER...DO YOU KNOW ANY THEOLOGY? This, BTW, is complete nonsense, and is found nowhere in Scripture. Made-up false tradition of men, nothing more.

Original sin is passed on by the Father. That sin makes all men love sin more than God

(Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

Rom. 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Rom. 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

"It is the father who communicates human nature; in him Adam continues to procreate and thus original sin is passed on with the paternal seed. ..."(Original Sin in the Roman Liturgy: Research Into the Theology of Original Sin ...
By Gerard Lukken

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQ0AMkkTb7IC&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=sin+is+passed+by+the+father&source=web&ots=5XPFxCN8wu&sig=Pw24Jpz04N_f9_MpWDt147jirkg#PPP1,M1

We see in Hebrews that Levi, a distant descendant of Abraham, is said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek when Abraham was the one offering the tithes, not Levi. What this means is that there is biblical support for the idea that the sin nature was passed down through the father. Since Jesus had not literal, biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. However, since He had a human mother, he was fully human but without original sin. Jesus has two natures: God and man. Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form." Jesus received His human nature from Mary, but He received His divine nature through God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus is both God and man. He was sinless, had no original sin, and was both fully God and fully man.
http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_sin.htm

The belief that original sin (however one choses to define that) is generally accepted as passed not from the mother, but the father.

That is why Jesus HAD to be the son of God and not a man.

[Mad Dawg]

You say Mary HAD to be .... I was questioning the HAD, not the virginity.

I note you didn't answer my question.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

His (Luther's) tomb has a prayer to her engraved on it

Luther's tomb in Wittenberg is sparsely adorned and bears no inscription nor prayer to Mary. I've been there and seen it.

The only inscription near Luther's tomb is his own writing...

"_Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott._" -- A Mighty Fortress is Our God."

The tomb usually cited by Catholics as Luther's is actually the tomb of Henning Goeden, Jurist and last Catholic Provost of the Castle Church.

Here's a more honest statement from a Catholic website...

MOTHER MARY AND MARTIN LUTHER

"If one believes Peter Stravinskas, it would seem that this inscription on his heart is reflected in the inscription on his tomb. Stravinskas published a generally good article on "The Place of Mary in Classical Fundamentalism", at www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/fr94101.htm but I'm afraid he made one pious mistake: He maintains that the sculpture of the Coronation of the Virgin and inscription by Peter Vischer the Younger which is to be found in the Wittenberger Schlosskirche, where Luther is burried, goes with Luther's tomb. I wish it were so, but I'm afraid it belongs to one of the other tombs in the church. If you google for images of Luther's tomb (or Luthers' Grabmal), you'll see that it is the simplest little slab of stone rising a little out of the floor of the main church, a good distance away from the walls - no "burial chamber" at all."

[Mad Dawg]

DO YOU KNOW ANY THEOLOGY?

Who wrote at 612

Nope I do not know what it [that is, Patripassionism] means, ...

Just sayin' .... maybe we can be gentle with one another?

[Quix]

Amen!

Thanks, Thanks.

[Mad Dawg]

Perhaps there are things we are NOT SUPPOSED to know, or maybe scripture contains an overview of ALL the work of Christ.

Or maybe, as Paul says when he advises people to hold on to what he has passed on to them, which is the very meaning of "tradition", there are traditions which are also worth consulting.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen. Roman Catholics do not understand how Protestants are physically put off by the kneeling to saints and veneration of Mary and all the accompanying fawning over men and the creation when God instructs all men to bow to only Him.

I wish for them the same discerning antagonism God has given us in response to those Christ-obscuring lies.

[Quix]

Thanks.

[Quix]

Amen. Roman Catholics do not understand how Protestants are physically put off by the kneeling to saints and veneration of Mary and all the accompanying fawning over men and the creation when God instructs all men to bow to only Him.

I wish for them the same discerning antagonism God has given us in response to those Christ-obscuring lies.

= = =

INDEED! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!