Posted on 10/08/2007 6:08:42 AM PDT by NYer
Pyro, you’re very much to be commended for “fighting the good fight” on this thread. The initial articles were great. The posturing, hubris, bile and vitriol are simply to be expected.
A supposed promise given to St Simon Stock, put in a Bull by Pope John XXII, ratified and modified by later Popes that says that on the first Saturday after death, Mary will redeem from Purgatory all of those who die wearing her Scapular [other conditions may apply as well].
LOL. Terry Thomas. No one did gap-toothed grin better than he.
I would never, ever, ever have the remote possibility of ever praying to the vastly overrated “Abe”!
They aren’t even holy people; that wasn’t their venue, so why would I pray to them, anyway?
Wow!
Thanks for the info.
So Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL graces but God can dispense graces through other means?
Your definition of "all" is quite interesting.
Yeah, God also said in the same Torah that His people are not to eat pork either, and I don't see most "Reformists" abiding by that commandment either.
This is the inconsistent nature of your theology. You pick and choose the verses you use as hammers against patrisitic Christianity (I use that term since you object to much of what the Orthodox do/believe as well), and ignore/explain away other ones, like John 6, that aren't your cup of tea.
To address the specific admonition, I repeat what I said earlier, that Catholic do not see these images as gods, do not make sacrifices to them, etc. Open your Bible to Exodus 32:8.
They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.
It isn't just the act behind the "falling down," as you put it, but the intention that goes along with it. If a Catholic went before a statue of a saint, venerated it, and said "This is one of my gods," then truly he would be in error. As the footnote for Exodus 20:4 puts it:
"A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing"... All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10.
In summary, this "Reformist" train of thought is similar to that of the Pharisees, who abide by the actions of the law, but do not have the spirit of it.
Jacques-Benigne Bossuet wrote this....
“Mary stands near the Cross. With what eyes she contemplates her Son all covered with blood, all covered with wounds, in form now hardly a man! The sight is enough to cause her death. If she draws near to that altar, it is to be immolated there: and there, in fact, does she feel Simeon’s sword pierce her heart.
“But did her dolors overcome her, did her grief cast her to the ground? Stabatjuxta crucem: she stood by the Cross. The sword pierced her heart but did not take away her strength of soul: her constancy equals her affliction, and her face is the face of one no less resigned than afflicted.
“What remains then but that Jesus who sees her feel His sufferings and imitate His resignation should have given her a share in His fruitfulness. It is with that thought that He gave her John to be her son: Woman, behold thy son. Woman, who suffer with me, be fruitful with me, be the mother of my children whom I give you unreservedly in the person of this disciple; I give them life by my sufferings, and sharing in the bitterness that is mine your affliction will make you fruitful.”
Mary’s love for Jesus was enough to make her a martyr: “One Cross was enough for the well-beloved Son and the mother.” She is nailed to the Cross by her love for Him. Without a special grace she would have died of her agony.
Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain: but she brings the faithful forth in the most cruel suffering. “At what price she has bought them! They have cost her her only Son. She can be mother of Christians only by giving her Son to death. O agonizing fruitfulness! It was the will of the Eternal Father that the adoptive sons should be born by the death of the True Son. What man would adopt at this price and give his son for the sake of strangers? But that is what the Eternal Father did. We have Jesus’ word for it: God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son (John 3:16).
“(Mary) is the Eve of the New Testament and the mother of all the faithful; but that is to be at the price of her Firstborn. United to the Eternal Father she must offer His Son and hers to death. It is for that purpose that providence has brought her to the foot of the Cross. She is there to immolate her Son that men may have life. She becomes mother of Christians at the cost of an immeasurable grief. ” We should never forget what we have cost Mary. The thought will lead to true contrition for our sins. The regeneration of our souls has cost Jesus and Mary more than we can ever think.
For me, just thinking about Mary there at the foot of the cross and what she endured... it is enough for me to cry like a baby.
I can only pray that our Blessed Lord forgives some of our separated protestant brothers and sisters for what they do and say about Our Blessed Mother
I wish you a Blessed day!
Yeah, when you look at it through your lens, it would appear to be “interesting.”
That's why Catholics shouldn't waste their time praying to Mary on Saturdays especially. It's hard to reach her on that day since she is out of the office, burning up the miles on that long road between heaven and purgatory, redeeming those scapular wearers :)
. Why, He is the one that suffered for me? She didn't suffer for me at all. Her suffering was natural His was spiritual.
Give it a little bit of time. From Catholic Online:
"There’s another well-known Catholic who also calls the Mother of Jesus the Co-redemptrix: His name is Pope John Paul II. He has done so on six occasions during his post Vatican II pontificate."So, was John Paul II speaking ex cathedra or was he speaking as a fallible human being? Was his well-known devotion to Mary a signal on the direction that the RC church would ultimately take or was it heresy? If the RC church decides to reject the notion of Mary as co-redemptrix, then you have the problem of one of the most popular popes in history being a heretic.
By the way, I admired Pope John Paul II greatly for many reasons but found his extreme devotion to Mary quite frightening. The Bible, which is supposedly one of the three legs of the footstool that is the RC church, is most explicit that our worship, prayers, and devotion belong only to the triune God and not to any other.
The apostle John records this caution about bowing down to or giving more credit to angels (or anyone) than is due: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant...'" (Revelation 19:10, see also Revelation 22:8-9). I think that if someone with a devotion to Mary actually met her, she would tell them the same thing.
We're in an agreement with this one. If they did so with the intention of worshipping her as a goddess, then she would do so.
It's not my analysis, it's scripture. Check it out -- you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with Matthew.
In light of the other sayings of Jesus and the apostles and the context in which the statement was made, I think it pretty obvious that Jesus was excluding himself.
I noticed that you conveniently ignored the verse in Luke where Jesus rebuked a woman in the crowd for yelling out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
I'm very well aware of the rest of the verse, thank you, but nothing in it cancels out the first part of the verse. Jesus was speaking of the end of the Old Covenant (of which John was the last prophet) and the beginning of the New Covenant. The Bible is full of passages explaining how the New Covenant is superior to the Old Covenant.
Jesus abolished dietary restrictions.
Not so with falling down to the stock of a tree. God's words again idolatry are still in effect and stand in condemnation of your praying to Mary, saints, woodland sprites, and any other name but the One Mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.
Catholic...do not make sacrifices to them
The mass is defined by the RCC as a repetition of the sacrifice of Christ, which is clearly against God's word as found in Hebrews 10.
I'll say!
Would you mind outlining those "other conditions?"
Wait a minute. You're trying to change the subject. We're talking about supposed "idolatry" by Catholics. Now, you're trying to talk about the "repetition" of sacrifice of the Mass. Stick to the topic!
That's not completely accurate.
But if any man say: This has been sacrificed to idols, do not eat of it for his sake that told it, and for conscience' sake (1 Cor. 10:28).
I believe you completely. However, not everyone is in agreement with us. I don't know where you live, but most Hispanic RC churches barely even resemble their American counterparts in doctrine or in practice.My wife, who is Hispanic by decent, and I attend our inter-denominational church on Saturday night and, until a few weeks ago, we both attended Catholic mass on Sunday morning with her brother's family because our nephew is going through the confirmation process. I like the church and we contribute to it financially. It's not strong in the power of God (neither are most Protestant churches) but it's a good, humble church that worships God and ministers to those in need.
A few weeks ago, my nephew's classes began meeting from 3:00 to 5:00 on Sunday afternoon and I usually don't attend them, though my wife does. There's a group of Hispanic learners of all ages and a group of "American" (for lack of a better word) learners. This past week the teacher, Sister Yolanda, was teaching about the wrongness of going to curanderos (essentially witch doctors). The Hispanic learners were incensed with what she was teaching them because in Mexico, curanderos are an accepted part of the Catholic culture. In fact, in Latin America, Mary is generally more revered than Jesus himself. I promise you, you wouldn't even recognize that you're in a Catholic church -- you would think that you had stumbled across a place of goddess worship. What's more, the Mary that is literally worshipped is a Mary of superstition conglomerated with indigenous goddess folk religion, so you wouldn't even recognize Mary.
My wife grew up Presbyterian because that was what her Baptist father and Catholic mother compromised upon but became a Catholic upon her first marriage. She was a lay leader and even taught the same classes -- in the same church -- that her nephew is taking now.
When she divorced her husband because he was a serial adulterer, she lost her posts in the Catholic church and began attending a mildly charismatic evangelical church. She was set on fire for Christ, learned the Bible, learned how to pray, and began seeing what could only be miracle after miracle. For years she believed that she wasn't saved while she was in the Catholic church and never knew Jesus while she was there. I argued with her that God had her where he wanted her to be at the time and was nurturing her and that one can be a Catholic Christian and a non-Catholic Christian. Now that she has begun attending the Catholic church that she attended for so long, she sees that God is there, working through the priests and the congregation, and that she most definitely was a Christian when it was her home church.
For what it's worth, the person who set me on the spiritual path that I'm on now is a charismatic Catholic who is also a Freeper. You know who you are if you're reading this ;-). I shall always be indebted to this person and am looking forward to resuming long conversations in heaven.
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