Posted on 09/11/2007 7:37:47 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
I think you’re the one who needs to examine “context” ... Your failure to answer my questions is noted. Your failure to refute my points is also noted.
Good day.
Your failure to understand clear, plain Standard English is also duly noted.
"Congress shall make no law...." seems pretty clear to anyone. Well, anyone but a lawyer or a liberal that is.
L
I was quabbling over the establishment clause, not the free expression clause. In which case, I would say that yes, prisoners lose whatever part of “free expression” is inherently made difficult as a direct consequent of their imprisonment, although reasonable accomodations should be sought.
For instance, Catholics have to make due without receiving the body and blood under the appearance of the species of wine, Baptists have to make due without immersion baptisms, and, of course, Rastas get no pot. As for Muslim foot baths: A rinsing dish may be doable, but specially built facilities? Not likely.
Your continued failure to address my points is noted.
Your resort to insults is also noted.
I conclude that you have nothing meaningful to say.
You may have the last word.
Good Bye.
If we’re discussing establishment, I think only one religion is “established”. There seems to be a sort of secular “state worship” that could loosely be defined as a religion, and that’s definitely established by government. But even that isn’t really imposed on anyone.
lawyers will be the death of this country.
This, like all discussions of religion and the founding of this country, proves how well the enemy of God, Satan, has distorted the truth.
The first and biggest lie is that the founders came here to practice freedom of religion. Our country was not founded on freedom of religion. Nothing is further from the truth. There was not a ship full of Christians, a ship full of Jews, a ship full of Muslims, a ship full of Buddhists, etc. They were all, for the most part, Protestant Christians who had came to the new world to practice what they felt was Biblical Christianity.
The country they envisioned was a group of individual States allied together under a limited Federal Government which was only to act in the best interest of those States and provide services the States couldn’t do better by themselves. That is why the Senate had equal (2) members from each State chosen by the State legislators.
They were supposed to protect the interest of their State and not let the people or the Federal Government limit their State’s rights. The founders would run our current crop of Senators out of town on a rail if they didn’t hang them for treason.
Because they were predominately Christians, they thought their offspring would be as well. In their wildest dreams they could not have imagined how the country would progress into what we have today, 200 years later. If they had, I am certain the amendment would have been written differently.
If you look at the original State Constitutions you find how Christian they were and how they thought religion would take care of it’s self on the State level.
This is a typical oath a person had to take to hold any public office from the Delaware Constitution.
Constitution of Delaware; 1776
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
” I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced.”
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
” I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”
And all officers shall also take an oath of office.
ART. 29. There shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this State in preference to another; and no clergyman or preacher of the gospel, of any denomination, shall be capable of holding any civil once in this State, or of being a member of either of the branches of the legislature, while they continue in the exercise of the pastorial function.
I found the restrictions on pastors puzzling until I found this in the New York Constitution.
XXXIX. And whereas the ministers of the gospel are, by their profession, dedicated to the service of God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their function; therefore, no minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, shall, at any time hereafter, under any presence or description whatever, be eligible to, or capable of holding, any civil or military office or place within this State.
It never ceases to amaze me that no one mentions the State Constitutions to show the mood of the people at our founding but only want to argue whether Jefferson was a deist or not. I did find it funny that a leftist group web page I found, uses these Religious test not to show they were Christians but to show how intolerant of religious freedom the founders were.
The only thing the founders feared, was one Christian sect or denomination being placed above another. They had no fear of individual Protestant Christians of any sect and their beliefs effecting policy in the country. They understood that those beliefs had to be maintained for the government bodies not to become corrupt.
As to this topic, the founders would have allowed any religious books as long as they taught or reinforced Protestant Christian beliefs of any of the sects of that time..
BVB
That’s right. There are no establishments of religion in America. But they would be licit, if they existed. The state of Connecticut could establish Roman Catholicism, for instance, as the state religion. But the establishment clause means that Congress couldn’t buy Catholic bibles for students in Connecticut. On the other hand, it could grant money to each state to purchase text books, and if Connecticut schools chose to spend such funds on Catholic bibles, that would be acceptable.
It’s a definition of “establishment” that is so radical from our notion of “seperation of church and state” that it’s shocking. But keep in mind that the very first act of the same Congress which ratified the first amendment was to appropriate funds for the teaching of the gospel “among the Heathen.”
“Religion” did not mean your personal values or beliefs. It meant a church heirarchy! The establishment clause meant the federal government couldn’t pressure the states to officially adopt a given denomination; it did not mean the federal government had to be anti-Christian, or even neutral to Christianity.
(And yes, if, say, South Carolina had established Islam, South Carolina could have protested the first Act of Congress violated its establishment.)
I like the way the South Carolina constitution of 1790 worded it:
That’s good.
Now here’s a case where the state could use it’s own Constitution to permit Bibles in prisons and prohibit the Koran. The Koran also endorses insurrection where Jesus says to render unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is God. Scripture also clearly encourages supporting the one’s government and being good citizens- living peaceably with all men.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.