Posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC
Thank you for this.shalom b'shem Yah'shuaBlessings to you and yours.
Thanks Chuck and blessings to you too.
I look forward to Erev Rosh Hashanab'shem Yah'shua
at evening on the 12th of September.
As am I. We will be attending worship services and fellowshipping with other Michigan churches on Thursday. Do you have any special plans?
The old covenant feast days were unique to Israel as a nation living in the physical land when there was a temple and a priesthood to offer the sacrifices according to the law given through Moses.
The priesthood, temple, and biblical nation of Israel no longer exist. There were done away with at the coming of Christ who gave us a new holy nation and royal priesthood called the Church. We no longer keep feast days given by Moses (who represented the law) that have decayed and faded away (Heb. 8:13). Those who attempt to keep these ersatz feast days do so according to traditions of men, not the commandments of God, for God never gave His people instructions on how to keep Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur apart from the temple sacrifices or earthly priesthood.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).
We follow Christ in the grace of the gospel. If you are still following after Moses by keeping old covenant feast days as pleasing to God then the apostle Paul has much to say to you in Galatians.
Christs followers live under the terms of the new covenant in the new Jerusalem where the old priesthood and old ordinances no longer have any place. They were mere shadows of things to come (Col. 2:17) and Christs followers no longer come to Him in shadows.
Really? I've got many friends on line and in real life who would disagree with your opinion.
We no longer keep feast days given by Moses (who represented the law) that have decayed and faded away (Heb. 8:13).
Christ, the Lord himself, is chronicled in the bible speaking to Moses about his (Christ's) holy days:
Lev 23:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Also you are apparently inserting your opinion into hebrew 8:13
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
The old covenant, not the Lord's holy days, is what Hebrews 13 is referring to.
Those who attempt to keep these ersatz feast days do so according to traditions of men, not the commandments of God, for God never gave His people instructions on how to keep Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur apart from the temple sacrifices or earthly priesthood.
Nonsense. Let's look at the feast of trumpets (Rosh Hashanah):
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.
Lev 23:25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
We have instructions to:
1. Observe a sabbath.
2. Blow trumpets.
3. Gather together.
4. Don't do servile work.
None of these require sacrifice or a temple.
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
We follow Christ in the grace of the gospel. If you are still following after Moses by keeping old covenant feast days as pleasing to God then the apostle Paul has much to say to you in Galatians.
Paul kept the feasts himself:
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Act 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
They were mere shadows of things to come (Col. 2:17)
You misquoted scripture:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
ARE, not "were".
I live in a small town of 3000 people and 30 churches. However none recognize Yah'shua and the first testament. So I will celebrate with Paul Wilbur CDs and Elohim's Holy Word.Since I've moved from Denver, I'm now 125 miles from Roah Israel.
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
and the need or desire to keep Elohim's feast days.
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
ARE, not "were".
My BibleWorks says the verb is present tense as you stated. Great catch on the verse.
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
He's writing before the destruction of the Temple.
"Are" became "were" in AD 70, when Temple Judaism ceased to exist.
Great catch on the verse.
Not exactly. From Paul's perspective "are" would be correct since the temple was still standing and the temporal/temporary Levitical priesthood was still ministering according to the bloody requirements of the old covenant, the covenant that was decaying and passing away. AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.
From our perspective, 2000 years since the temple was destroyed and the keys of the Kingdom were transferred from national Israel to spiritual Israel, the Church, the phrase I used was quite correct.
And that is supposed to prove what?
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I always get a chuckle when the messianics quote this passage and then fail to explain why it is that they are free to ignore all the detailed stipulations given in the Mosaic law about how Israel in the land was to keep the feasts, etc and may pick and choose the parts of the ceremonial/Levitical law that should be kept today. I guess jot and tittle really does not mean anything in your system.
Can you show exactly where in the Bible God gave commands for how to keep all these feast days under the new covenant without benefit of the jots and tittles that were given originally?
The rabbis had to invent new law to explain this to their post-AD70 followers. Can you explain why it appears messianic are doing precisely the same thing today?
Paul kept the feasts while the temple system was still in place to win his fellow Jews to Christ, not in order to find special favor with God.
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; (1 Cor. 9)
What was Paul admitting about the law when he says he became as a Jew? And what does Paul say abut those who place themselves under the law?
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. (Gal. 3:10)
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal. 5:18)
You need to read all of Paul to get the right picture.
DKC>"ARE, not "were"."
XS>Great catch on the verse.
Not exactly. From Paul's perspective "are" would be correct since the temple was still standing and the temporal/temporary Levitical priesthood was still ministering according to the bloody requirements of the old covenant, the covenant that was decaying and passing away. AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.
From our perspective, 2000 years since the temple was destroyed and the keys of the Kingdom were transferred from national Israel to spiritual Israel, the Church, the phrase I used was quite correct.
11 posted on 09/10/2007 5:02:44 PM MDT by topcat54
was correct for forty years, but is incorrect today because it conflicts with your eisgesis. How does this square with your belief that all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD.If I understand you correctly Elohim's Holy Word i.e. Yah'shua HaMashiach
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
Not incorrect, rather fulfilled.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. " (Luke 21:20-22)
The temple was destroyed, just as Jesus prophesied. The new covenant was established and sacrifices and priesthood were ended within the seventy weeks, just as Daniel predicted (Dan. 9:26,27).
How does this square with your belief that all scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD.
Not all Scripture, just those pertaining to the destruction of the temple and the end of the old covenant system, and the handing of the keys of the kingdom over to the new covenant leadership.
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. " (Matt. 21:43)
Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matt. 23:36)
Frankly, Im not the one with the fancy eisegesis. Nor do I need to buck most of the New Testament as well as the teaching of the Church for 2000 years.
Obviously if you have temporal language, at some point, an event which a text foretells in the future is in the present, and at a point after that, it's in the past. That doesn't mean that the scripture is "incorrect," it means that it was written at a particular point in time which has passed.
Deuteronomy 18:15 says that God "will raise up" -- future tense -- for Israel a prophet like unto Moses. Is that event still in the future, or was it realized in time when Christ came, and therefore now in our past? And if God has now sent the prophet like unto Moses, does that mean that the Scripture was correct, and now is not?
Of course not.
That makes no sense.
In the first place Paul wasn't decrying the Lord's holy days. He was telling fellow Christians not to let others judge them in HOW they were observing them.
You MUST believe Paul was either a liar or stupid if you think he was telling others not to observe the Lord's holy days.
This is because whatever Paul was addressing in Galatians 2 had specific, identifying elements:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
The Lord's holy days are NOT philosophy, but scriptural commands of the Lord. The only scripture Paul had was the "old" testament.
They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.
They are NOT "rudiments of the world", but holy objects of the divine.
Paul surely knew this. Do you think he was lying, or just stupid? Paul, who was under the new covenant, is addressing other Christians, who are also under the new covenant. You're saying AD70 was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance" meted out against unrepentant Israel.
Nice of you to make up a reason for Paul's behavior. Paul and every other early Christian didn't have an "old" testament. Their bible said:
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Compare:
Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Paul didn't tell his fellow Christians "I have to go evangelize in Jerusalem". He specifically said that he was going to "keep the feast".
Here too:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
He instructed Christians to "keep the feast".
Paul observed the holy days of Jesus Christ because Christ created HIS holy days. When Christ incarnated, he observed the holy days and Paul imitated his example:
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
Your explanation for Paul's behavior just doesn't match up with scripture.
Again senseless. Paul was writing to fellow Christians. Paul and the people he was writing to were all under the new covenant. If Paul believed that the holy days WERE shadows, he had no reason not to say so. After all (according to you) the old covenant was over for Paul. Presumably (according to you), they weren't participating in any of the priestly services. They WERE shadows to him. But still, he said ARE. Why?
I agree that makes no sense if your presuppositions are pushing you in a different direction.
In the first place Paul wasn't decrying the Lord's holy days. This is because whatever Paul was addressing in Galatians 2 had specific, identifying elements:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Lets not back up to verse 8 and miss the immediate context.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Any unbiased reader would reasonably conclude Paul was speaking of the old covenant festival days, new moon celebrations, and annual sabbaths, etc.
They are not "traditions of men", but holy days created by the God of the universe.
Sorry to confuse you. By traditions of men I mean the traditions that are practiced today without any warrant from the Word of God. The fact remains that Gods has nowhere commanded modern day messianics to observe feast days apart from the temple and the priesthood and the land. They way you do things today are traditions since you have obviously ignored the jots and tittles of Moses commandments and replaced them with practices of convenience. (E.g., where does God in His Word allow uncircumcised gentiles into the Passover? Or perhaps your group does not celebrate the passover with gentiles present.)
Do you think he was lying, or just stupid?
Neither. I just think you do not thoroughly understand Paul and his zeal to tear down the middle wall of partition and the racial barriers that divided Jews and gentiles.
You seem to have a very stunted view of Pauls ministry.
for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. (Acts 18:28)
And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. (Acts 19:8-10)
Im curious, where exactly is it recorded that Paul made it to Jerusalem to keep the feast. It appears he was very busy evangelizing his fellow Jews, staying two years in Asia. It not even clear that he made it in time for Pentecost (Acts 20:16).
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