Five Tools Saddleback Uses to Develop Spiritual Maturity

Christian (itching ear scratching) Post (online) ^ | Sat, Aug. 25 2007 | Rick Warren

[Terriergal]

What? Five tools and not one of them is Scripture? These are 'five tactics.'

You can't 'maneuver' someone into maturity.

Feed a baby pablum, he'll be malnourished. Feed him good food and he'll grow. You don't have to use 'tools' or 'techniques.'

Hebrews 5:8-14 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Commitment card!

(credits to Chris Rosebrough at www.alittleleaven.com)

[secessionist]

“They have consistently produced mature believers who walk the walk, talk the talk, live the life…”

As always, it’s the little things that are so telling…How many Walk the Talk?

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

Commitment cards and covenants are tools to manipulate people; far removed from making disciples. Warren is sly - whether he means to be or not. Most folk do not discern the angle of departure from God’s Truth and end up so far afield they know not where they are.

Some hold to what is called the “normative principle” - that which is not prohibited in Scripture is permissible. I give you Robert Schuler and Rick Warren as exhibits 1 & 2.

Others hold to what is called the “regulative principle” - that which Scripture permit and direct, do. Spurgeon comes to mind.

If we hold the Bible loosely, we will sin against God - individually or corporately as a church. God alone is our refuge and His Word alone is our true revelation of Him and His will for us.

“The Message”, beloved by Warren, is NOT the Bible.

[secessionist]

Amen.

[MarkBsnr]

I’ve been to the Crystal Cathedral a few times. Rev. Schuler is nice, warm, personable, agreeable, soothing, uplifting, agreeable, nice, warm, personable, soothing, agreeable, nice, uplifting...

Wasn’t a whole lot of Scripture, praying or theology, though.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

Robert Schuller holds this view of the Lord and humanity:

“I don’t think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and, hence, counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise that the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition.” from a Time magazine interview dated 18 Mar 1985.

Robert and his son teach the demonic doctrine of human potential and deny the truth of the crucifixion of Christ. I have no doubt that these two make the flesh fell good. That is not the goal of Biblical preaching nor of the Lord.

[DragoonEnNoir]

While I’m not a big Rick Warren cheerleader, I think it’s a bit unfair to say that none of his ‘tools’ is scripture.

If you look at what he has posted, you’ll see that within classes and small groups there is probably a lot of emphasis on scripture. I say probably because it’s not certain, but there is no need to criticize and condemn a Brother in Christ merely because the Spirit has led him in ways that are different than ours.

The others may be rooted in scripture, in essence being scripture applied.

I think Warren’s emphasis on progression in faith (in his classes) is also sound, though I would question the order and specific content of them. Is ministry only for the ‘hyper mature’, or is it the life blood at the centre of a follower of Christ?

[MarkBsnr]

People don’t have a lost and sinful condition?

Maybe he believes that everyone is of the elect. :)

[melissa_in_ga]

References to:

New Testament - 1
Scripture (the word) - 1
Christ - 2
Biblical (the word) - 1

However, there are many references to the growth of his church. He wants the big minnows! Not the little ones! etc.

I have a PDL book at home that I bought years ago. After the first chapter I quit reading. As a non-practicing Catholic with a serious fundamentalist bent, I find the “feel good” churches a little off-putting.

This isn’t really a rebuttal to your post, merely an observation I made as I was reading. I read the Religion forum every day, but never post on it.

[melissa_in_ga]

Sorry, I think 3 references to Christ. My apologies.

[GOPPachyderm]

howling with laughter! but it is so sad, isn’t it?

[DragoonEnNoir]

Nice to have you posting.

As I said, I’m not a big fan of Warren, but God works through many different ways. Not all will be to our preference.

I’m not sure if I’d call him a ‘feel good’ church though... not in the ‘health and wealth’ genre anyway.

[HairOfTheDog]

Rick Warren could read the bible aloud verbatim and some would still complain that they just don’t like his voice.

It’s a little bizarre.

[Wheee The People]

671 new believers came to Christ and were baptized

How many came to Christ and were baptized at your church? It isn't about the numbers, but this opining from afar on the "quality" of these new Christians seems to lacking much of a foundation IMHO.

[Terriergal]

Nice straw man.

[Terriergal]

It’s highly unlikely people will come to a sincere repentance when presented with a ‘how to have a better life’ sermon and required to jump through hoops. Can’t you see how it’s legalism? (traditions of men?)

This opining from afar regarding my opinion (based on experience in a Purpose Driven church) is a little lacking in foundation too.

[Terriergal]

It’s not about my preference. Never was.

[Terriergal]

howling with laughter! but it is so sad, isn’t it?

Laughter seems to be the only way to emotionally cope nowadays with the rapid descent into delusion and apostasy going on all around, and no one really seeing and understanding, or caring.

[BlueNgold]

Excuse me while I ignore the Right Reverend Warren...

[Terriergal]

I think it’s a bit unfair to say that none of his ‘tools’ is scripture.

Oh yes. The Message. I forgot.

The church's primary "purpose" is to preach the word, in season and out. that's it. The rest of his so-called 'purposes' will come from that, because that's what the Word, rightly handled, does.

Focusing on polishing the cart will not put a horse in front of it.