Posted on 08/17/2007 11:11:00 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
You must have been very fortunate or extremely selective.
My wife’s best friend when we lived in Indiana was the daughter of an acapella-only CoC preacher, so we got to experience not only her church, but several others around the area and I got to see her father preach as well.
Her church had the conservative service early morning and the liberal service late morning and I got to see both to compare and contrast.
The conservative preachers tended to strut about on the stage, prancing, dancing, lecturing, hectoring and shouting at the people for an eternity, punctuated by occasionally letting somebody sing.
The liberal services had keyboards, guitars, drums and kumbaya lyrics where everything was kind and gentle and the only thing incongruent was the grape juice. Women and teenagers got up and spoke and it was sickeningly sweet and inane.
The thing that struck me most about the services, though, was the paucity of Bible verses, the lack of prayers and the attitudes of the congregation. The conservatives were afraid of the preacher, and the liberals just had a pleasant and meaningless time of it all.
About the only thing that both the conservatives and the liberals had in common was a pathological fear of Papism, which they seemed to think stalked the land in the night and came into one’s house under the door or through the windows.
So Peter was the “rock” huh?
Interestingly, in Mathew 16:18, Christ says “You are ‘Petros’, and upon this ‘petra’ I will build my church.
Petros was a name meaning a rock or stone. But Christ used a different word, petra, when he said he would build the church on it.
But, I would rather you tell me something else. Why would Christ, the Almighty, the Perfect One, come and establish a kingdom “that shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44), and establish and put Peter as the head?
1. Christ is the Head of the Church. (Ephesians 5:23)
2. Peter denied the Christ.
3. Peter held, in error, the Old Law and tried to bind it on the Gentiles. (Galations 2:11-21)
4. As someone else pointed out, when a man came and bowed down to Peter, Peter pulled him up and made him stop.
5. Even more interestingly, in Acts 10, Peter is seen to have poor understanding of what the Lord wanted of him.
Your assertion that Peter was the first Pope flies in the face of scripture and logic.
This is simply untrue. You'd be hard-pressed to find a member of any church of Christ who would support such a statement. The fact is that God only knows the membership of the Church. The rest of us would do well to place our membership with Him.
Nothing about that sounds conservative. It sounds like you got one of the FAR, FAR left churches calling itself a church of Christ.
I challenge you to ignore the teachings of ALL churches, and perform a topical, Biblical study of Baptism on your own. Let the Word speak directly to you on the subject.
I’ve never found such a church of Christ. I can’t say that I’ve attended all of them, everywhere. However, I find your analysis incongruous with my continuing experience. Above the rest, your statement that there is a “paucity of Bible verses” simply doesn’t wash. The Bible is studied more in churches of Christ than any place I’ve ever attended.
Another poster told you that none of what you described sounded like conservative churches of Christ, even though that one claimed to have 2 services one each for conservatives and liberals. I concur with what he said.
There is no way that THAT represented anything but a church CALLING itself the church of Christ, and there was nothing “conservative” about the so-called conservative service either, oh, well, except perhaps when you compared it to their liberal version...maybe. But not conservative in the sense of true churches of Christ who actually are conservative.
No TRUE church of Christ would divide the congregation up that way and offer something to appease different tastes. A true church of Christ would have elders and ministers who would do what they believed the Bible taught was right, and if some members didn’t care for it they would be told to feel free to go elsewhere. For you see, such a practice in a congregation is NOT BIBLICAL.
There is much more Bible reading at a Catholic Mass than at any of the CoC services that I’ve attended - both conservative and liberal wings. Furthermore, Catholics cover the entire Bible every three years from Genesis to Revelation during Mass.
And this does not include any further Bible study that takes place.
Please go back and read what I said.
I’ve been to both wings of the CoC and I find that I dislike both, for the reasons previously stated.
The conservative preachers that I’ve seen disgust me because they attempt to portray God as a vengeful angry and violent God that wants nothing more than to send all the unworthy to hell everlasting.
The liberal preachers that I’ve seen disgust me because they are all kumbaya and everyone should just get along and be happy.
The church that I spoke of eventually imploded and the preachers were sent packing.
Since each church is completely autonomous unto itself, I would be very interested in knowing what a TRUE CoC is, and how I could judge it.
It is not power.
When people strongly believe they are following what Christ laid out for His church, they get really sensitive about those that seek to change that. There are problems with the young wanting change and the older ones feeling the wanted changes are wrong for any number of reasons.
Both sides strongly believe their way is correct and eventually a split occurs. Both sides have good points. Also, at one time some churches were infiltrated with the Boston Movement that took over churches from within and corrupted them. So, members are a bit sensitive to the motives and results of the changes.
But power is not the issue. How very petty. Maintaining their church is the issue.
Each church of Christ is autonomous and independent. So it is not far-fetched to imagine finding one that has lost The Way. After all, look at the seven churches described in the Revelation.
Each congregation - its elders, deacons and members - is responsible to ensure that it follows Biblical practices. If my congregation were to go off the deep end, I would dissociate with it and either attend a different one, or start a new church of Christ with like-minded believers.
If I and other like-minded believers started a new congregation, the new, Biblically-focused congregation and the old, non-Biblical congregation would both exist, and both carry the name church of Christ. But only the new one would actually be a church of Christ congregation.
I know this is all very confusing to denominational folks. It was to me at first, too (I am a former denominational person). To understand it all, it’s important to understand that each congregation is truly independent in all ways. Each congregation fulfills its duties - including the great commission - in its own manner and according to its own means. Hence you will find no central authority or structure. A church of Christ is recognized not by its name, but by its adherence to the Word.
All you have to do, is go to the Bible and find authority for installing a pope, check what is said about the leadership of the church. Is the Catholic church run by elders meeting the criteria in the Bible?
Where is the instruction in the Bible that says man can buy his way out of sins? There are so many things in the Catholic Church that do not match the Bible. And those things have been added by man.
The differences you find are based on what those people feel is scriptural and an awful lot of tradition.
Yet, you will notice that the churches do not differ to the point of installing intermediaries between man and God as the Catholic church does.
Man has access to God himself and prays to God through Jesus’ name. There is no need to install an earthly being as head of the church. Members are under the direction of elders (as specified in the Bible), preachers are hired by the elders and are overseen by the elders.
All you have to do, is go to the Bible. The Bible says do not add to or take from the Word.
Churches evolve into their current beliefs by including or taking out the “additions” that men have added over the years. So, the denominations evolve into totally different beings than the beginning. The only way to remain the Church Christ created, is to go back to the inspired Word of God (Bible), ignore the man-made creeds, doctrines and touch base with what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Other than that you are subject to following power, subject to man’s created doctrines to allow what man wants - not what God wants.
But you were looking through “judging” eyes to prove that your church was better. You were not seeking truth.
Does your church teach the Bible or does it teach the man-made creeds?
Does your church allow an option to buy forgiveness for sins? What is that based on?
Does your church install a man that you bow down to above you? We do not find anywhere that we are to establish a man above us as intermediary between us and God. That intermediary is Jesus for us - we need no other man.
The intermediary between God the Father and man is our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. God the Holy Spirit still is working in us to further the sanctification process within us.
The role of all the parts of the body complement each other per His Plan, hence the importance of us remaining in fellowship with Him.
You are correct, regarding academic understanding of Scripture as something which may also be used as a counterfeit to faith. On the contrary, through faith, our daily intake of Bible doctrine is used in our thinking processes by God the Holy Spirit to further sanctify our heart, souls, and minds.
God has provided different spiritual gifts to different members of the body to work together per His Plan.
All you have to do is go to the Bible and see what Christ says about his church and his teachings.
Then you compare what your current church teaches. If it is not the same, it is not the Church.
Man-made creeds and doctrines will always be justified by man with proof that they are divine from God. But, you are putting your salvation and your beliefs in the hands of those men. We all know that power corrupts. We all know that men have weaknesses and will justify what they want.
Therefore, if you do not check back to the one Word that God gave us, you are running the risk of your salvation.
The Bible clearly states do not add to or take from the word. If that is true, why are doctrines and creeds required?
The Catholic church had great power in the early days because people could not read and depended on the interpretation of the Bible by the early leaders. Many preachers had to travel far, look up certain scriptures in the Bible for their sermons and carry it back to their members.
This, of course, meant that they “picked” the portion of the Bible that applied to the current sermon and brought that back to the members. What about the whole of the Bible? What about the parts they did not happen to carry back. Over time this would form denominations because people were exposed to differing portions of the Bible.
But we have access to the Bible and we can track back the true meaning of the words.
So, it would be wise for man to go to the inspired word, the Bible, to check what is being taught in his own church. If it is not found in the Bible, it is added by man, by tradition, or for some reason.
Why would any choose to believe man over seeking what God had to say about His church?
I was looking at performers.
The conservative preachers strut and prance like bantam roosters. It is no different than the televangelists who posture and emote. They call upon the name of God. They pound their Bibles and shake it in our faces. I looked around the congregations that I was in and found some fear, some boredom, some apprehension, but little cognizance.
Our Church teaches from the words that Christ left for us. He commanded us to teach the world and so over the centuries we amassed volumes of work that assisted us, one of which is the 72 books of the Bible.
What Scripture do you use? And how do you determine that it is the Word of God? How do you interpret it? How do you know that that interpretation is correct?
Answer: you don’t.
Our Church does not allow people to buy off their sins. When Jesus gave Peter the keys and when Peter was instructed to tend / feed / tend His sheep, we have our leader for Jesus on earth to tend to things until He comes again.
It is amazing that the Catholics know so much about the history of their church but do not seem to know a lot about the Bible.
Why would any church prefer to use their own creeds to teach rather than the Bible which is God’s inspired word?
Any church that puts the divulging of knowledge into the hands of the “leaders” only makes one ask why? Any church that handles services in another language knowing that most people will not understand, makes one ask why?
Any church that directs members to some creed, doctrine or reading matter for instruction and ignores the Bible, makes one ask why?
When you find that the Bible is not the source for doctrine, teaching, or understanding there is a big why.
There are many wonderful people in the Catholic churches and other denominations but I fear that they are being led by men who have found a way to install themselves as exalted humans to give out the teachings of Christ in their version. And they then “sell” the package with all the pomp, the elitism, and the lavishness which draws men to become a part.
But, remember, Jesus was born in a manger, Jesus never had wealth, pomp and lavishness, He was here to save us for eternity. Apparently Jesus did not see the need to glorify himself with wealth to draw believers.
Go to Jesus for teaching. After all, we are all seeking to follow Jesus not a church leader.
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