Church of Christ guided by New Testament [Campbellite beliefs discussed in Q&A]

NewsOK ^ | August 11, 2007

[Iscool]

How silly. Jesus spoke Aramaic from the cross: ‘lama sabachthani’ is definitely Aramaic and some of the phrases in the Old Testament are precisely Aramaic. When Jesus spoke to the little girl who had died, He said ‘talitha, qumi’ which is Aramaic. It’s language not dogma.

Eli, Eli is Hebrew...Mark used Eloi, Eloi which is a transliteration of Aramic...Matthew translated the Hebrew into Greek, and the English translation from that of course is, 'My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me???

A little bit of 'trickery' by the Romish church to claim it is Aramic to justify using the Aramic KIPHA in Matt. 18:18 to prove that Peter was an Aramic 'rock' instead of a Greek 'stone'...

[pjr12345]

Must every thread deteriorate into a catholic thread?

It’s well established what the RCC teaches and preaches. Many of us do not agree. It would be refreshing to have an interesting thread in the religious forum that sticks with the original subject matter. Invariably, someone brings up the RCC.

Perhaps all future non-RCC threads ought to be caucused as “No RCC discussions allowed”.

[Uncle Chip]

Perhaps all future non-RCC threads ought to be caucused as “No RCC discussions allowed”.

Only those who are insecure about their pontifications and who are unable to reasonably discuss and defend their pontifications have to hide behind "Caucus Only" threads.

[MHGinTN]

Thank you for that explanation. I was not aware of that esoteric fact since I try to stay off of the religion threads, usually. I have my own translational assignment to the passages in question and have long ago settle for my self that The Church, The Bride of Christ is the phenomenon established with and by Spirit work, not some man-directed institution. Christ spoke of the solid corner stone foundation which the Holy Spirit establishes and against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail. Institutions ALWAYS fail, some sooner rather than later. Some even go through phases of abject failure then renewal then failure again. The religion of Mormonism is based upon the misreading of just such a fluctuating human institution because the founders of that peculiar religion could not see the actual Church and preferred instead to attack the visible institution(s). Islam is founded in the same false reading.

[pjr12345]

Only those who are insecure about their pontifications and who are unable to reasonably discuss and defend their pontifications have to hide behind "Caucus Only" threads.

Alas; you are correct, sir! Forgive my Monday morning blues.

Just once, though, I'd just like to see ships floating in a full bath, rather than spiraling toward the sewer.

[Dominick]

The point of these postings are to:

1) Elect Barack Obama by driving a wedge between real conservatives making it impossible to find common cause.

2) Get people fighting on the Internet, like they need an excuse...

3) The Moderators of this service are not busy enough so we need people to act like children.

4) All of the above.

Pick one, there is no excuse for these threads.

Wise up people. By fighting about his on FR, you are doing the work of George Soros, not Jesus Christ.

[Campion]

Matthew translated the Hebrew into Greek

No, he didn't. He transcribed the exact Aramaic words. They're written in the Greek alphabet (just the way they're written in the Latin alphabet in an English bible), but they aren't Greek. Go look it up if you don't believe me (I just did). It says, "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani". That ain't Greek, kiddo, and it ain't Hebrew either.

that Peter was an Aramic 'rock' instead of a Greek 'stone'...

The Koine Greek word for "stone" is "lithos".

A little bit of 'trickery' by the Romish church

You guys are the ones who are engaging in trickery.

[Diego1618]

Peter's Roman sojourn is legend ---and no bones about it.

Yah gotta luv it! LOL

[Alex Murphy]

The point of these postings are to....Pick one, there is no excuse for these threads.

You left one out:

5) Education - sometimes for me, sometimes for others.

Unless you intend to hold me accountable for the posts of every every infidel, heretic, bigot, basher, yahoo, ignoramous, dolt, dimwit, maroon, and otherwise unpinged unwashed uncouth malcontent that ever added a comment to one of my threads, that is.

[ClancyJ]

Yes, I can go back and give you the bible verses taught - but that will be an overwhelming task to prove what?

In class we are studying the book of Jeremiah, on Wednesday nights we are studying Revelations. The preacher is currently teaching I and II Thessolonians. Sunday night he was teaching about “seeing what you hear” with explanation how the bible teaches us with pictures formed by the biblical stories. Words alone are just words but when we “see” them in the stories, it reaches our hearts. Examples - David and Goliah, Noah and the Flood and the new covenant of no more destruction by water as shown by the rainbow.

We are extremely fortunate in that we have a member who is an expert on the ancient civilizations and has delved into teaching Revelations through the eyes of the 1st century Christians. He is also teaching it as it would have been interpreted in those times with the meanings of the words and symbols looked at through their traditions, lives.

Of course this is his view and is discussed with the views of the preachers, elders, members. But, very enlightening.
I could not even begin to explain it because much of it goes over my head. His main point is that the book needs to be looked at - not literally - but with eyes seeing the message from God given. And that message is hope. That although Christians will endure persecution even to the point of death, that if they stay true, death can not touch them as they will have eternal life. And, it shows those that suffered so cruelly to the point that some were boiled alive or quartered, that God will take revenge.

There is a difference in listening to a pastor as compared to installing a man on earth to be worshipped and who gives rules.

Now, for me, when I look at the Catholic Church, I see a massive organization that has installed a man on earth to be worshipped and esteemed above all other men. This I do not find in the Bible. The apostles had powers given by Jesus. But those powers were to prove that they were from God to spread His message. The day of miracles by the leaders was over after them - per the Bible.

I also see opulence, pagentry, which we did not see Jesus concerned with.

I visited the Bishop’s Palace in Galveston which is a lavish mansion left to the catholic church. A bishop lived in that lavish luxury for years and even converted a bedroom to be his personal chapel although the church was right across the street.

I could not help but compare this to what Christ put his emphasis on. And wealth, pagentry and opulance were never found bestowed on Him or the apostles. Look at how the apostles lives ended. They all died horrible deaths.

So, I see a church with many wonderful people - but I see a massive power delving out biblical instructions while they amass power and wealth. Service yes, but what you see is the massive wealth.

I could give you so many things that the Catholic Church does that I do not agree with .....

-Praying to Mary. Mary is not God or Jesus.
-Holding services in Latin - delving out biblical instructions as they see fit.
-Establishing saints that people pray to.
-Establishing one man to be elevated above all other men to on earth.

All of those prayers and honor can go directly to Jesus. There is no need of a pope to intercede for us, Jesus intercedes for us with God. We can pray directly to the creator of the universe with simple prayer. Why is there a need to install men to live lives of lavish wealth?

[ClancyJ]

See, her views came from the last generation’s emphasis on works and following the technicalities of the
Bible.

She may not have meant “earn her salvation” but have only really meant being true to God’s plans for her.

Jesus paid for our sins by His death which was why He was sent.
When we acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, repent of our sins and are baptized for the remission of those sins, we are buried with Christ in baptism and arise to a new life. We are given the gift of the Holy Spirit living in our hearts.

From then on we follow Jesus to the best of our ability. Now we can turn our backs on Jesus, fall away or deny Him, and lose our salvation. But, we also can ask for forgiveness and go forward.

The authority they had as preachers was that they knew she accepted Christ as her Savior, was baptized and attempted to follow Him. The bible teaching was the authority.

Many wonderful people who have served God all their lives feel that way on their deathbed. It shows an acknowledgment that each of us could do more and regret that we did not.

I too would get irritated at preachers telling us you are saved by grace of Jesus’ death. Then before the end of the sermon, they would say, but be back here next week or ........... I would go out the door thinking “they giveth and they taketh away”.

But I feel that is the fault of the preacher.

God will judge each one of us on Judgment Day. And, I trust that the whole of each man will be looked at with eyes that see the whole of us with all our imperfections in character, genealogy, mistakes and failings and look into our hearts.

It is interesting that you question the authority to decide if a person has done enough or not, yet you believe in a church with a pope, bishops, priests on and on.

[ClancyJ]

Why do you keep going back to Campbell, why do you demean a church because they will not join other church alliances?

Big deal?

I have been a member of the Church of Christ for 60+ years and I could not really tell you about Campbell although I have heard him mentioned in my youth. Usually in jest that some call us Cambellites?

Now, if I was a Cambellite, wouldn’t I know it?

Any person any where can go to the Bible and learn of Jesus’ dieing for our salvation and the instructions to receive that salvation. If they follow what Jesus says to do, they are a member of Jesus’ church period.

We have heard of a man in Africa that came across a Bible. He read it, studied it and then traveled to a city and went to a church wanting to be baptised for the remission of His sins.

That man is a Christian no matter what church baptised Him. He is a member of the Church of Christ. You forget that originally being a member of the church of Christ just meant that you read the Bible and followed the instructions to repent, and be baptised and you will be saved. They are Christians - not baptists, methodists, catholics - just Christians. Then they need to keep on studying and find a church that teaches what they learned about the church in the Bible.

[ClancyJ]

Compare the beliefs of the Mormons and the Church of Christ.

Mormons

-Joseph Smith, a latter day saint.
-Multiple wives for one man

Church of Christ

-Only the 12 apostles
-Joseph Smith, not a saint
-Marriage to one husband or wife.

Looks like you are attempting to smear the Church of Christ - why the necessity to do that? We simply believe in the Bible teachings, why do you find that needing to be demeaned .

Why the need to tear down the Church of Christ? Does your church tell you to destroy the reputation of simple bible believing people?

[ClancyJ]

It is very telling that you seem to impart knowledge of the history of all church branches but know nothing about what they believe. Makes me doubt your history too.

[ClancyJ]

Where do you find instruction to baptize three times - I have never - ever - heard of that.

Where do you find that only church officials have the power to forgive sins. Jesus and God forgive sins - man has no power over forgiving our sins. Man may lead in asking God for forgiveness for our sins - but no man can take God’s place in forgiving.

Are you saying all of the prayers people say daily asking forgiveness for their sins is a waste of time because the “elite” church officials did not do it for them?

Talk about power. It is about power - the power of men over other men to the point of being their intermediary with God.

No, I never heard mention in the Bible of a pope or bishop forgiving our sins.

[ClancyJ]

Mine has 66.

So, you have 72? Then why are they not published in the Bible in the stores?

If they are so powerfully better what man would hoard them to himself? Any such church that would willfully keep the Bible from man, is not a church but a power seeking organization.

I will go with the 66 thank you. Seems really suspicious that there is a need for “extra books of the bible” to prove your heiracy and teachings. Seems you would want to share them with the world and they would be accepted worldwide.

What a pity that your powerful church has not had the means to give the world the missing chapters from their bibles. Maybe they should ask the members for contributions to spread the word.

[MHGinTN]

You have freepmail.

[ArrogantBustard]

So, you have 72?

Yep. Nothing new about that.

Then why are they not published in the Bible in the stores?

Which stores? Complete, 72 book Bibles are trivially easy to find, and not at all expensive. They can even be had online for free. Perhaps the you should challenge whatever stores there are that only sell 66 book abridged Bibles to quit trying to hide the complete Bible.

If they are so powerfully better what man would hoard them to himself?

Another good question. But we are truly blessed that some folks do NOT hoard them, sell paper copies cheaply, and even give them away at no charge.

Any such church that would willfully keep the Bible from man, is not a church but a power seeking organization.

With that, I agree. Fortunately, there are plenty of folks willing to sell or give you a complete Bible. I guess those would be true Churches.

I hope this has been of some assistance to you.

[sinatorhellary]

What does not make sense is the phrase "using grape juice instead of wine." Grape juice is unfermented (or new wine.

Wine in the Bible is applied to all stages of the juice from grapes, ranging from

• fermented wine - Pr 23:29-35
• unfermented (new) wine - Pr 3:10
• juice still in the grapes - Isa 65:8

So to use unfermented wine, commonly known today as grape juice, is authorized. Why would you think otherwise?

[sinatorhellary]

"Does ONE verse in James automaticly negate many verses in Paul’s writings?"

On the contrary. Verses written by James, verses written by Luke (Acts 2:38), verses quoting Jesus (Mark 16:16), verses written by Peter (1Pet 3:21) are the same gospel as those written by Paul.

Maybe the problem is in your understanding of Paul. You definitely should reconsider your stance that NT writers conflict with one another. If any of them are deemed wrong because they disagree with you, then they all stand in question for the same reason.