Posted on 07/31/2007 4:19:37 PM PDT by NYer
I assume most RC's, as with most denominations, stop their catechism training with this kind of "short" or "brief" catechism. Am I wrong?
Did the people have to obey the Apostles? Yes, because they spoke with the authority of Jesus, and therefore, to disobey them would be a sin. "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me." (Luke 10:16) Did the authority of the Apostles die with them? No, they handed down their authority to others, since Jesus instituted His Church to last until the end of the World. Some of the men who received authority from the Apostles: Matthias (Acts 1:22), Paul and Barnabas (Acts 13:2), Timothy, Silas, Sylvanus, Titus, Luke, Mark (Acts 17:14; 2 Corinthians 1:19; 2 Timothy 14:11) Which Church today has the same authority? The Catholic Church, because it is the only Church established by Jesus Christ.
A simply amazing jump from "The Apostles" to "The Catholic Church". Forget the poo-pooing of their validity (for now), they are more talking points than catechism. Again:
Name the founders of other leading Protestant churches. Name of church Founder When Where Episcopalian King Henry VIII 1534 England Presbyterian John Knox 1560 Scotland Congregationalist Robert Browne 1583 England Baptist John Smith 1600 Holland Methodist John Wesley 1739 England Adventist William Miller 1831 New York Christian Scientist Mary Baker Eddy 1879 Massachusetts
An 8-10yr Sunday School student should fail a Church History test with these answers.
Do "cradle catholics" get better catechism at a later point?
Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae (1896) declared the Anglican apostolic succession invalid.
If there was such a Christian church in England, it was long gone by the time Pope Gregory sent missionaries to the Angles. The Celts were driven out of England by successive waves of invaders.
The English claim for precedence over the French and Spanish was political in origin, and the Joseph of Arimathea legend was pressed into service of that claim. Sadly, it has no basis in fact.
But the Episcopalians right this minute are claiming that the Holy Spirit has led them to consecrate practicing homosexuals as bishops and 'bless' homosexual partnerships. The Holy Spirit has led them to reinterpret Scripture so that the proscriptions against homosexuality in the Bible are only against "temple prostitution."
How do we distinguish valid promptings of the Holy Spirit from promptings by Something Else, or from maliciously or negligently fraudulent claims of promptings of the Holy Spirit?
But what you said was wrong, and I was correcting the record.
That’s what I thought. Rome did consider them apostolic for a long time, right? Did the other apostolic Churches quit considering them apostolic at the same time or what?
Freegards
How self-serving.
Wrong, on both counts.
The Eastern Orthodox and Coptic doesn't predate Christianity in Rome. They both date from the Apostles. The Anglican Church was created with Henry VIII's schism.
In 1555, after Queen Mary's accession to the throne and the return of England to Catholicism, Pope Paul IV issued the Bull Praeclara Charissimi, directing that "those who have been promoted to ecclesiastical Orders . . . by any one but a Bishop validly and lawfully ordained are bound to receive those Orders again." Apostolicae Curae also notes that converting priests were reordained in the 17th and 18th centuries, thus indicating that their orders were not valid.
I believe it sort of came and went. Henry took the English out of the Church, but then when Bloody Mary got in she took them back, then James took them out again, for good. The bishops that joined Henry were validly consecrated bishops. Therefore, in my understanding, those they ordained were validly (but illicitly) done. However, Leo XIII declared that they were indeed INVALID, due to defects in the form of ordination.
So, yes, for centuries, apparently, they were considered schismatics, but validly ordained. One hundred eleven years ago, that was overturned.
It’s interesting that this was just about the time that the C of E stoppped persecuting Catholics and allowed them to have their own churches.
You explain things so well. Thank you.
I don’t think the Episcopalians believe that the Bible is really God’s word. I had a female Episcopalian priest(ess) illustrate their “3 legged stool” approach to religion and downplayed the Bible in a discussion about homosexuality back in 1998.
“How do we distinguish valid promptings of the Holy Spirit from promptings by Something Else, or from maliciously or negligently fraudulent claims of promptings of the Holy Spirit?”
It’s pretty easy to tell if someone is being genuine to their own religion or using touchy-feeley language to rationalize their position. Squirming around direct Bible verses is your first hint.
Apparently not the only disease!
That hierarchy you condemn was set up by Christ Himself with the Apostles. Ecclesiastical egalitarianism lead to societal egalitarianism, and we know what the fruits of societal egalitarianism are.
Wow!! You guys rock! Thanks very much fer taking time to help a less edjumcated Catholic out!
Freegards
John 6:48 et seq. is a usual suspect.
What is the authority for distinguishing interpretation from ill-intended parsing?
“Arrogant words such as these have started wars in the past. Shame on whoever uttered them.”
I’m pretty lenient with people claiming their way is the only way. I consider Catholicism a different religion from Christianity, and it is their right to make claims to their superiority, and back it up with what they wish. There are quite a few groups who make exclusivity claims on Jesus, including Mormonism and Islam.
They're sure more Christian than the Episcopalians right now . . . maybe that's damning with faint praise, but it sure was nice to get into a Bible-believing, Christ-centered church! I haven't noticed any absence of Christianity in my new parish -- our priests preach the Gospel and "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
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