Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
8~)
Ask Paul. He’s already given us the answer.
Thanks for the Catechism quotes. But here, the Holy Spirit does not really blow wither He wills, but rather wither He is brought? :) I know the priest asks, but has the Spirit ever said "no"? If not, then the Spirit follows the lead of the priest. There are plenty of concrete examples in the Bible of the Spirit entering those who were already believers. Are there any of the Spirit entering unbelieving infants?
(1213) ... “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water and in the word.”
OK, so regeneration is at baptism and is confirmed later. So, presumably, if a child for some reason is never confirmed, that should not affect his status.
If God has ordained perseverance, and He ensures that perseverance is guaranteed, then what effort is required? If it’s His will, and His actions, and His perseverance, then what in the world does He need (some of) us for?
I'm not sure what you mean by "effort". If "effort" means free will works apart from God, then no further effort is required. If effort means the accomplishing of God's plan for us on earth per His direction then the effort is in the execution. God wants me to evangelize so He causes me to get up and go do that in various ways. ...... God actually does not "need" us for anything. While we are very loved, we are no where near that important. God is not my co-pilot.
That’s interesting circular logic: all true Christians fall away and are brought back so that shows a true Christian. All untrue Christians fall away and are not brought back (or never were, they just appeared to be there), so that by definition they are not true Christians.
Well no wonder you didn't quote me first before you wrote this. It wouldn't have made any sense then. Here is what I actually said:
FK: "It is common for true Christians to fall away temporarily, but God ALWAYS either brings them back or brings them home."
Unless you are responding to some other part of my post, I don't see how these really relate to each other.
Could you expand on the bringing back process? How does one know if one is brought back?
The same way one can know one is saved. A person either stops (or never starts) living a Godly life in service to the Lord by bearing fruit. At some point God changes this and brings the person back home so that he does bear fruit.
I agree that the thief is a special exception. Jesus brought him to Salvation by His own direct action. We have no recourse to such action; we go along in the fashion that He directed us.
GOODNESS, Mark! :) If you're not going to post my comment that you're responding to, do I really have to go back and do it to avoid grievous error? :) Here is what I actually said:
Do you see the thief as a special exception, and not consistent with what is otherwise taught in scripture? I do not. Grace through faith, period. :) His perseverance was his dying testimony. He was no different than any of us. (emphasis added)
There are no special exceptions among men for salvation, just as there are no special exceptions among men being without sins.
Would that be:
How much good could a Hindu do, if a Hindu could do good?
Everyone has a conscience. No man is without excuse. The world testifies to a sovereign Creator of all creation. And one day, all knees will bow to only Him.
Alamo-Girl has given a much better Scriptural understanding than I ever could of the differences between a natural man and a spiritual man. Those differences are real and God-given.
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
Natural man is not capable of doing righteousness because he remains in his post-Adam condition -- fallen and sinful.
Only those who have had their sins covered by the blood of Christ, names ordained by God from before the foundation of the world, can and will cast off the old man and put on the new man in Christ.
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." -- Ephesians 4:20-24"But ye have not so learned Christ;
Do men create their own "new man" or does God create the new man in order for men to put him on as "the elect of God, holy and beloved?" (Colossians 3:12).
ROFLOL, you have such a good sense of humor!
Please explain "naturally" wanted to please God.
Does that mean "without God"? Well, that goes without saying. However, the Spirit blows where HE wills, and thus, writes within even the pagan a law on his heart. God's Spirit enables man to desire to please God, as noted in Hebrews 6.
Regards
Not at all. This is the very nature of God. Augustine noticed this in the following two passages:
Eze 36:26-27 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
It was based upon this reasoning that Augustine rightfully deduced his prayer:
This is the heart of Christianity. God commands all men to repent, but God must grant repentance.
Augustine was pretty clever.
God is mediated through the Scriptures, but that is not His essence. No one can see God and live. To see is to know. Do you think that the Bible is God??? This question keeps coming up - and I am beginning to think that some Protestants, perhaps subliminally, worship the Bible...
You know ABOUT God. To know God is through experiencing Him through prayer. Then, we learn that we are really ignorant about God HIMSELF. The human mind that claims to "know" God as you is actually lowering God to a creation and worshiping this creation. We cannot comprehend the transcendant, the infinite. Those who claim to are ignorant about their ignorance.
But the word of God and the power of God are stronger than any atmospheric condensation...
God's words are not God. Again, you are merely showing that you are worshiping the bible, rather than God. And regarding inspiration, even that is not God.
Keep looking.
Regards
That was Kosta; I'm always nice. :)
If 'sociopathic' is nice, please go back to your former fallen ways.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I certainly wasn't calling you sociopathic.
That was my point. And it seems to me the descriptions of free will and changing "wants" was a description of someone with and without a conscience.
There are many posts that openly state that man has no conscious role in his own salvation.
Not enough! God willing, one day EVERY post will state the truth that man has "no conscious role" in electing himself. It is all of God. "Salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:9)
God elects; Christ redeems; the Holy Spirit sanctifies. What a glorious plan for creation.
God elects and man has no choice. If man has no choice, then he has zero moral and spiritual responsibility.
All men are responsible for every action they undertake. And God elects unconditionally without regard to men's good works. Those two sentences do not contradict one another. They are both true. Read the rest of the Westminister...
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5] III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7] IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8] V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11] VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17] VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
Of God's Eternal Decree
As always, the footnotes refer to Scripture found at the site.
"...called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season..."
I just love that line. "Ripeness is all," said Shakespeare. And so it is.
Ping to 8,132.
Great post.
LOLOL!
I think that would make a great tagline :>)
“If fallen man, the non-elect, non-regenerated, etc., can only freely wills to sin, to do evil always, these are his only “wants” - as was said earlier, then this person is also properly described as devoid of conscience and incapable of compassion.
By definition this is a sociopath.
So that’s where the choice came from.”
The sin of the unregenerate man is in NOT loving the one true God. We ALL sin. In Christ we find forgiveness for our sin. The unregenerate man can do good works, but he will not love God on his own accord. This is what we refer to as ‘common grace’. In reformed theology we understand that man is depraved, but not utterly so.
Who can refute it?
7. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always reject the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51) 12. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth. (1Corinthians 2:14) 6. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always despise the Light of Grace. (John 3:19)
lol.
No man is prevented from believing in Jesus Christ. But many men do not believe in Jesus Christ.
Do you think those men actually want to believe in Jesus Christ? If that's true, then why don't they? Do unbelievers wish to be who they are or someone else?
Because every unbeliever I know is perfectly happy being an unbeliever. In fact, many of them think Christians are nuts and they are "happy" not to be numbered among them.
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