Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
I think giving you a definition of Total Depravity will answer these questions.
IN the Westminster Confession the doctrine of Total Inability is stated as follows: — “Man, by his fall Into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.”l
It sounds to me like if sin bothers you, in other words you do not lack a conscience or compassion - which would classify you as a sociopath - you have had your wants changed by God (in your terms) and is therefore elect.
Do you believe "whatsoever is not of faith is sin?"
Or is Paul wrong in Romans?
What do you mean by saying we are defining this thing down?
It sounds to me like if sin bothers you, in other words you do not lack a conscience or compassion - the lack of which would classify you as a sociopath - you have had your wants changed by God (in your terms) and you are therefore elect.
That's why I'm seeing this as defining elect down to equal "not a sociopath".
I mean no offense D-fendr, but I just do not understand many of your posts. Maybe it's me. Dunno.
By definition, only the elect have hearts that have been regenerated by God and minds that have been renewed by the Holy Spirit unto the truth of Christ risen.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5
I think it goes even further back than that. :)
You're the one asking all the questions and the "cloud-like" lack of understanding. We're the ones with answers.
"Sociopaths?" That's a peculiar word choice. Are you among God's family? Are you a sociopath?
Or do you not know whom you have believed?
Sorry, I’ll try again.
I’m going off on the recent discussion of free will, the before and after parts:
Before: “only capable of choosing sin; only want to sin - always”
After: “want not to sin, can choose to sin, but bothered by it, etc..”
My points were:
- I don’t know anyone who has always chosen sin always and always - I think they’d be dead before high school in fact.
- Being bothered by sin, by stealing, harming others, doing what we know is wrong, is a function of conscience, or formation thereof. (A complete religious education involves this integrally, so it’s not a purely secular concept.)
Therefore, I’m seing what you call being elect as what I and others would call having a conscience (regardless of whether we always choose to follow it).
Which would mean, to me: If you have a conscience and you walk into the Calvinist framework - you’re elect.
Who writes the law in our hearts and is it with indelible or disappearing ink?
Thanks for your reply. I’ll try to be clearer.
Here’s why I used the term sociopath.
If fallen man, the non-elect, non-regenerated, etc., can only freely wills to sin, to do evil always, these are his only “wants” - as was said earlier, then this person is also properly described as devoid of conscience and incapable of compassion.
By definition this is a sociopath.
So that’s where the choice came from.
God. Our conscience is from God. That's why increasing spiritual development and formation of conscience are inseparable.
God is a hijacker of people, in other words.
We’re back to the robot slave scenario again, I’m afraid. I think back to the article on Spurgeon.org that the good Dr. E. had such trouble with.
“Hyper Calvinism is a system of theology framed to exalt the honour and glory of God and does so by acutely minimizing the moral and spiritual responsibility of sinners.”
Does that come across in anyone’s posts here? There are many posts that openly state that man has no conscious role in his own salvation. God elects and man has no choice. If man has no choice, then he has zero moral and spiritual responsibility.
Westminster Confession
Chapter XXXIII
Of the Last Judgment
I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]
II. The end of God’s appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.[5]
III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will He have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]
Objection the 1st: “all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.” If they have no moral choice in their deeds because God withheld His Saving Grace, of what justice is the judgement? What is the difference if they are Judged or not, since the non elect are going to hell and the elect are going to Heaven?
Objection 1a) If deeds are not of interest, then why are deeds judged before the Tribunal of Christ? What is the purpose of the Judgement?
Objection the 2nd: “but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.” If they were prevented from knowing God by God withholding His Grace from them, of what justice is the judgement? What is the purpose anyway, since the preordination of the elect and the non elect is written on their souls before they were even born. The ticket is already stamped.
Objection the 3rd: “As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin...” But by Reformed definition, the non elect cannot be deterred from sin. This makes no sense.
That's really a pathetic analogy, d.
All men are fallen and anything not of faith is sin. Therefore, any good works we might do will come from God, according to His will for us. He gives us a new heart. He gives us new eyes and ears. He changes our wills from disobedient to obedient. He renews our minds and turns us from our wants to His.
Where's the Scripture that says God does not do all this, because you've been given massive amounts of Scripture that say these very things?
you have had your wants changed by God
Thank God.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" -- Ephesians 2:1-5"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Every human being has a conscience.
The freedom to choose to sin or not sin comes from a changed heart. When God gives a man a new heart, that man is Elect.
The Biblical Laws of Human Depravity:
1. The Spiritually Dead are born wicked. (Genesis 8:21, Psalms 58:3)
2. All humanely-benevolent works of the Spiritually Dead are considered by God to be unclean filthiness. (Isaiah 64:6)
3. As long as his is Spiritually Dead, the Unregenerate Man never freely wills the action of Righteous Good. (Jeremiah 13:23)
4. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are only and always set upon the doing of evil. (Ecclesiastes 8:11)
5. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, The hearts of Unregenerate Men are spiritually insane. (Ecclesiastes 9:3)
6. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always despise the Light of Grace. (John 3:19)
7. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always reject the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51)
8. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER seek God. (Romans 3:10-11)
9. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER will any action whatsoever of Righteous Good. (Romans 3:12)
10. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, it is defined as BIBLICALLY-IMPOSSIBLE that the Unregenerate Man should ever will any Righteous Good. (Romans 7:18)
11. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER perform any God-pleasing Action of Will whatsoever. (Romans 8:5-8)
12. As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth. (1Corinthians 2:14)
If nothing that we do matters, then what is the purpose of the Judgement and the emphasis on deeds?
Why the Sermon on the Mount? Why the Beatitudes if nothing that we do matters?
All people are born to go to hell. God was pleased that Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit and introduced death into the world God made all people and foreordained their final destination. Therefore God makes people to go to hell under Reformed theology. For proof, I turned to the:
Westminster Confession
Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]
I don’t understand the ‘how’ of hell. You don’t either. Nobody does. I just understand the ‘what’ of hell. But I still direct you back to the WCF’s fascinating statements to the effect that God is pleased that so many of His people roast in hellfire forever.
If you really read the Westminster Confession, you might be tempted to reverse your statement.
Try the opening lines of Chapter VI for starters.
Does that mean that no pagans can do good?
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