Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Pyro7480]

You think Judas was a literal devil?

[redgolum]

The question of Judas, and of Pharaoh in Exodus, is a tricky one, for it calls in to question predestination, how can God make reliable prophecy, etc.

Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, that much is obvious. But the real question is did God force him to, or let him. The traditional answer is He let Judas follow the path that he was already on.

[P-Marlowe]

You think Judas was a literal devil?

Yep.

dev·il(dvl)

n.

1. often Devil In many religions, the major personified spirit of evil, ruler of Hell, and foe of God. Used with the.

2. A subordinate evil spirit; a demon.

3. A wicked or malevolent person.

4. A person: a handsome devil; the poor devil.

5. An energetic, mischievous, daring, or clever person.

6. Printing A printer's devil.

7. A device or machine, especially one having teeth or spikes and used for tearing.

8. An outstanding example, especially of something difficult or bad: has a devil of a temper.

9. A severe reprimand or expression of anger: gave me the devil for cutting class.

10. Informal Used as an intensive: Who the devil do you think you are?

.

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.

[Pyro7480]

The traditional answer is He let Judas follow the path that he was already on.

Credo.

[adiaireton8]

but at the heart of every one of your posts is the denial of the Holy Spirit.

Condemning Montanistic gnosticism is not denying the Holy Spirit.

Somehow you feel more comfortable tying yourself to an archaic ...

Notice that your statement is an ad hominem. You are criticizing *me*. The reason I am a Catholic has nothing to do with the degree of comfort the Church gives me. The reason I am a Catholic is because the Catholic Church is the one true Church that Christ founded. As for "archaic", I say AMEN. Your denomination was founded 71 years ago by a man named Machen. You are part of a man-made institution. The Catholic Church, by contrast, was founded in 33 AD by Jesus Christ, on Peter the Rock (Christ being the Cornerstone).

magisterium which has shown itself to be misguided and riddled with error.

Prove the falsehood of one Catholic dogma, without begging the question.

Two billion dollars in payouts to redress the sexual deviance of the RCC priesthood should tell anyone with eyes to see that the tree of Rome is corrupt.

That is a non-sequitur. If the gates of hell cannot overcome the Church Christ founded, then neither can a bad group of priests. The Church has gone through worse periods in the past. Schism is never justified, even in situations like this. There is only one Church, because Christ has only one Bride.

The fact that some heretics site Scripture in defense of their heresies does not in any way negate the truth of Scripture and its correct understanding via the Holy Spirit.

Agreed. But it shows that appealing to Scripture and the Holy Spirit is not enough to guarantee that you have the correct understanding of Scripture.

The RCC (and thus you as we've seen here) can't argue from the Scriptures because your beliefs are so contrary to the Scriptures.

Catholic doctrines are in perfect agreement with the Scriptures. They are, however, contrary to your heretical interpretations of Scripture. (You keep leaving out that word 'interpretation', because you still don't realize that you are interpreting Scripture.)

-A8

[redgolum]

So the EOC (and non-Cahlcedonian and Assyrian) position is quite different than that of Christians who reject the Catholic faith and heirarchical and sacramental systems.

Which brings up the Incarnation. Which is more important, the theology of Apostolic Succession or the theology of the Incarnation? The non Chalcedonian churches do not have the theology of the Incarnation the same as the Chalacedonian churches do (which includes many Protestants).

Also, the Malabar Christians didn't have the best of luck with the Portuguese Jesuits at times. They were accused of being Nestorians, and many of their books were burned. Some have not united with the Roman Catholics to this day as a result.

[humblegunner]

Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

Pope drunk again ping.

[P-Marlowe]

The traditional answer is He let Judas follow the path that he was already on.

He was not on a path to betray Jesus until Jesus chose him as a disciple. He was just minding his own business, (probably working as a pickpocket at the flea market) when Jesus picked him to be one of the twelve.

[pax_et_bonum]

humble!

(arms crossed, toe tapping, and frowning in your general direction)

[Pyro7480]

Ad hominem ping :-P

[pax_et_bonum]

humble!

(arms crossed, toe tapping, and frowning in your general direction)

[Gumdrop]

“There seems to be a tradition expressed by some of our Catholic posters that suggests that the Holy Spirit does not work independent of man or independent of the Catholic Priesthood.”

Which posters might that be? It certainly is not part of the Catholic church’s teachings!

[kosta50]

For they wished those men to be perfect and unblamable whom they left and their successors and to whom they handed over their office of authority [+Irenaeus, c. 202 A.D.]

Doesn't get much clearer than that...

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. [+Ignatius, c. 105 A.D.]

Not only has the Church remaind true to the Apostolic faith handed to them by our Lord, but the heretics keep regenerating as well, like weed.

[adiaireton8]

There seems to be a tradition expressed by some of our Catholic posters that suggests that the Holy Spirit does not work independent of man or independent of the Catholic Priesthood. The tradition seems to be that unless a priest conjures up the Holy Spirit through some fancy elaborate ritual, the Holy Spirit is essentially powerless to do anything.

That's not the Catholic position. Christ has promised to work through the Church. So, for example, when Christ says to His Apostles, "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." (John 20:23), that tells us that when the bishop or priest absolve the penitent, then the Holy Spirit does as well. And when the bishop or priest retains a person's sins, then the Holy Spirit does as well. Similarly, in Matt 16:19, and 18:18, we see that what the Apostles bind, will be bound in heaven, and what the Apostles loose, will be loosed in heaven. That does not mean that the Holy Spirit is powerless or cannot work apart from the Church. It means that the ordinary means through which Christ and the Holy Spirit work upon the earth are through the Church.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

If the Apostles messed up there, then how can you trust anything they wrote, or any decisions they made?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

My last post was addressed to those who think that the Apostles made a mistake in choosing Matthias.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Are you ready to call the books of I and II Peter into question? If you can't trust the Apostle Peter, then why do you trust his writings?

-A8

[blue-duncan]

“I would also state that the efficacy of the sacrament is not dependent upon some kind of apostolic succession or official priestly ordination.”

Hey, how’s this for “apostolic succession” Romans 16:7, “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” Junia was a woman, probably Andronicus’ wife and they were “apostles” of note even before Paul. They were probably “of note” because they were Gentiles (Romans) and she was a she. Wow, that’s even more mind boggling than Phebe being a Deacon from the Cenchrea. I bet this is how the way was paved for the female pope, who bore the name of Johanna (Joan) in the thirteenth century.

By my count I think we are up to at least 14 apostles and maybe more. I’ll keep reading and let you know.

[irishtenor]

If I were to go to Safeco Field while a Mariners game was being played and walk onto the field I would be among the Mariners, but that wouldn’t make me one :>)

[adiaireton8]

The priesthood was abolished on the cross with Christ. Christ is our high priest. We need acknowledge no other.

How can you consecrate the bread and wine without a priest?

-A8