Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[irishtenor]

I don’t use an occasional Pauline verse, I use the Bible. You twist words to mean things other than what they say. Paul never said that works don’t matter. What he said is that works don’t save you. Entirely different.

[MHGinTN]

You have stated a clear exposition of something more reasonable than James offered. Paul states that we are reconciled to God by faithe (action word, not a noun) not by keeping the law or by any works that we may do to add to what Jesus has alreaqdy done.

James, being a very devout Jew and leading the Jerusalem Church for 19 years trying desperately to reconcile Christianity to the Jewish Temple system, James states (2:24) 'Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only'. The preceeding verses James tried to give the examples of Abraham and Rahab, citing deeds (works) as fulfillemnt of their faith, and Jmaes tries to infer that the deeds are the focus of being saved, as if the deeds must show to complete faithe. But what were Rahab's works? Prostitution and lying when she hid the spies.

If you read the OT story, it was Rahab's faithe (action based upon belief in the promise sustained by confidence in the promiser) that when she let down the red cord she would be spared as the city fell.

With Abraham, James claims that Abraham offered his son and that work was counted for him righteousness. Yet in the OT story we have two clues greater than the knife glinting in the air: when Isaac asks where is the sacrifice to be offered, Abraham says 'God will provide'. Then, just before going up the mount to do the sacrifice, Abraham tells the servants to wait at the foot of the mount and 'they' will come back down to them ... even if Abraham had to offer Isaac, Abraham was so given to the 'amen' of God's promise that in Isaac would Abraham's seed be called that Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead if necessary to fulfill His promises. James used a crafty deceptive wording to defend his position that faith plus works was necessary for salvation.

[Alamo-Girl]

I strongly agree with you that the words of God are all of equal value, i.e. a thing is true because God says it.

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:4-9

Further, I assert that when any of His children do not understand His revelations in Scripture – they should ask Him about it and not lean on their own understanding – a tendency of man which leads to anthropomorphizing God into a small “god” the puny, mortal mind can comprehend:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. – Proverbs 3:5-6

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matt 22:29

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. – Matt 13:10-13

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. – Isaiah 55:8-11

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. – John 16:12-13

As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. - Mark 5:36

He will guide each of us according to our ability, our need and most especially, His will.

To God be the glory!

[MHGinTN]

No, it is an indication that men do not fully comprehend how God uses His Word to touch the soul, and perhaps even we do not comprehend a greater simplicity that needs no complex institution for the Real Church to live and grow. At one age the Priesthood forwards the purposes of God and builds the body of believers/faithers. In another age the Word made so accessible to men is the tool or system by which even more may be added. The epistle of Jmaes should not be thrown out of the Bible (as Luther suggested), but the irreconcilable messages between Paul and James ought to give us pause to dig deeper without rejecting either.

[irishtenor]

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/13/1085_Does_James_Contradict_Paul/

The above is a site where Reformed doctrine is preached. The man in question, DR. John Piper, is an excellant source of wisdom and insite. He does a much better job than me. Please read it if you can access it.

[irishtenor]

Thank you. To GOD be the glory, forever and ever.

[kosta50]

” Is God, in His divine nature, subject to pleasure?” I would say, according to scripture, the answer is yes. Isaiah 62:5, Zephaniah 3:17, Matt. 3:17...

Anthropomorphisms. Next thing you will tell me that God has hands because the "Bible says so."

[irishtenor]

Didn’t Jesus pick up the little child? How did he do that if he didn’t have hands?

[Alamo-Girl]

You are quite welcome, dear brother in Christ!

Praise God!!!

[kosta50]

Further, I assert that when any of His children do not understand His revelations in Scripture – they should ask Him about it and not lean on their own understanding – a tendency of man which leads to anthropomorphizing God into a small “god” the puny, mortal mind can comprehend

Just make sure you get a positive ID on the voices that come back in your head...

Out of curiosity, how do you know God is speaking back to you? Does the voice say "Alamo-Girl" and you answer "Here I am"? And then He says "I am the Lord your God..."? That's biblical! :)

Or do you kind of "know" (there goes that gnosis again) it's God because...Or does it just "make sense?" Makes sense? Does Incarnation make sense?

Or do you have a secret "handle" when God talks back to you...kind of like a special "tune" that's positively only God's?

Are you sure it's not you talking back to you?

[kosta50]

Didn’t Jesus pick up the little child? How did he do that if he didn’t have hands?

What are you suggesting here, sir? Did the Father become Incarnate? Did the Spirit? Do you suggest then, like the Mormons teach, that God the Father has a body and used to be a man?!?

[fortheDeclaration]

I'd say no, God is not prideful nor subject to passions. Bear in mind these are somewhat terms of art in the theology. It flows from the attributes of God as immutable, unchanging, etc....Therefore, theologically, disagreement over passion in this sense would involve disagreement with the other attributes as well or the logic of the theology it derives from.

Actually, the failure comes in not understanding the nature of passions.

God is not subject to passions, because God is always in control of passions.

God's passions are always controlled by His other attributes, so they respond accordingly.

A passionless God would be a loveless God, which is the opposite of what the Scripture states God is.

Passion is a problem in man because he allows sinful thoughts to control them.

But when the Holy Spirit controls the man, then the passions that are produced are Divine Like, Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, gentleness goodness, meekness, faith, temperance.

Immutability does not move that God is either immovable or unfeeling, only that He never contradicts or violates any of His perfect attributes.

Thus, God's feelings are always perfect as well.

A God without passion (feeling) is not the God of the Bible.

[fortheDeclaration]

I do not think that the reply I say 'amen' to was addressed to the Roman Catholics.

They, were I believe, addressed to someone of the Greek Orthodox faith.

I have never thought that the Roman Catholics had any problem with ascribing passions to God.

[Alamo-Girl]

God is not "there" as in returning a phone call. When I pray, He responds directly and personally "here" in me.

IOW, His Spirit dwells in me and has for nearly a half century.

It's not that I know Him but rather that He knows me.

There is no need for a Q&A, Litmus Test or Identification - or a "Here I am" with Him replying "I am the Lord your God..."

All of that has changed since Pentecost (emphasis mine:)

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his... – Romans 8

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16

To God be the glory!

[fortheDeclaration]

By this reckoning, true Love is what God IS (and God chooses to be what He is),

God does not choose to be what He is, He is what He is because He is God.

Thus, God doesn't choose to be Love, God is Love.

What God does choose to do is to share His Love with sinful creatures who don't deserve it.

That is what John 3:16 is speaking of.

[fortheDeclaration]

God died? You mean that for 2 1/2 days the Universe was without God?

God was never dead since He cannot die, but you will be one day and you will be judged by Him,

and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement (Heb.9:27)

The humanity of Christ died and was buried and rose again on the third day.(1Cor.15:3-4)

Christ had two natures, not just one, He was God in the flesh (1Ti.3:16)

[Seven_0]

You have stated a clear exposition of something more reasonable than James offered. Paul states that we are reconciled to God by faith (action word, not a noun) not by keeping the law or by any works that we may do to add to what Jesus has already done.

Note the difference between the tone of Paul’s letters and the Catholic epistles.(Peter, James, John and Jude) Paul takes us into the sanctuary where we stand before God (Leviticus) The Catholic epistles take us into the world (into the desert) where we stand before men.

Matt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

When we stand before God the emphasis in on grace. When we stand before men, the emphasis is on works

We cannot impress God. Our light is like the light of a candle, which cast a shadow in the sunlight.

Seven

[fortheDeclaration]

I would categorize love as a decision. Those who would treat it as an emotion - as a result of something, rather than as a consciously made decision are often disappointed in marriage, especially.

God's Love is benevolence, that is, it always seeks the best for others.

It's nature is to give, not to take.

It is not responding to anything such as is often the case of love between a man and woman.

it is always initiating, seeking to do good and show affection.

Anger and affection are emotions, not love.

Well, God certainly states that He has both in the Scriptures.

For God, affection is (as it is with man) a corollary of Love.

[fortheDeclaration]

God is God; He may be beyond emotions, I certainly don’t know. Are you implying that a member of the Godhead can have a differing opinion, thought, emotion or outlook from another of the Godhead?

Now, why would I imply that?

Since all three Persons share equally of the same Divine Essence, they are always co-equal and totally perfect.

God can never be anything less then perfect.

God's emotions only differ from man in their quality, they are always perfect as well.

Man can have a relationship with God because like God man is a person with intellect, sensibilty and will.

We differ in degree of perfection in those attributes, but not in kind.

Each member of the Trinity is a perfect Person, thus, each of those qualites will be perfect and infinite in their scope.

Since man is a created being, he will always be limited, but can still communicate with and have a relationship with God his creator

[D-fendr]

thanks for your reply.

A passionless God would be a loveless God, which is the opposite of what the Scripture states God is.

I think it more accurate to say God is love according to the scriptures. If we say God sometimes loves and sometimes hates, we don't have an unchanging God which would violate other scriptures specifically and also those attesting to God's perfection and infiniteness.

Immutability does not [mean] that God is either immovable or unfeeling, only that He never contradicts or violates any of His perfect attributes.

Immutable means unchanging and incapable of being changed. Unless God is always angry/pleased, loving/hating, etc. all at the same time, how do see an unchanging God having these differing emotions? Particularly when He is outside time and change?