Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
If you wander on over to Rev 20: or, just for kicks, Matt 25:
31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
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He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
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When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
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a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
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He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
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And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Ain’t nuttin’ here about the elect. A whole lotta sumptin’ about following His commandments.
What’s the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish wake?
***A slave does not have free will; only a servant does. ***
MY very point. A slave has no free will, and Jesus said whoever sins is a SLAVE, therfore, anyone still in their sin HAS NO FREE WILL. But once Jesus has set you free, you have the free will to obey or not obey. Until then, you are a slave to sin. John 8:34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”
***they are the pinnacle of His creation.***
You keep saying that, but it no where says that in the Bible. We were made lower than the angels.
Only one dead body? I don’t know :>)
One less drunk!!!!
I’ll drink to that :>)
There is a difference between being a slave to the lusts of the flesh - a term, mind you, that we all understand to be merely a metaphor - and being a robot slave to predetermined existence. We have all experienced something that we really really like to do very much, such as smoking too much or drinking too much or slamming FR posters too much (sorry strike that) and we call that addiction, or a slave to the lusts of the flesh. Which, with willpower, we can overcome.
Being a robot slave in a predestined universe is not the same by a long shot. That is true slavery; where we cannot do what we will. If Jesus sets us free, then we have the ability to reject Him. If we have the ability to reject Him, then we are not of the elect and will not go to Heaven. It does not logically follow.
Mankind is so the pillar of God’s creation. He created us last (actually woman was last - that’s why they look better than us). I know, we need Biblical proof. Et voila - see folks, I do include St. Paul:
1 Cor. 6:1-8
1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
It seems to me that the Apostle Paul is saying that we will judge the world and the angels by our having been continuously “faithful” and “obedient” to God’s law (Bible) 1st Cor. 6:1 while we lived here on the “earth”. In other words, God is going to use the saints as a “testimony” against those who were “disobedient” to His Word and to further establish the fact that His Word and Promises are TRUE.
If we can judge angels, aren’t we going to be greater than they at the point where we judge them?
***He created us last (actually woman was last - that’s why they look better than us). ***
Finally, something we can agree on. :>)
We will judge the angels, once we are sanctified in heaven. On earth, we are still sinners and judge to know one.
You seem to have this big problem with God being in charge of everything. I find it a comfort that God has control of my life, and my salvation. It’s not up to me, it’s up to God. Whew :>)
Irishtenor: You keep saying that, but it no where says that in the Bible. We were made lower than the angels
Did God create angels in His image and likeness? Did he give them dominion? Are the angels going to judge the saints or the saints the angels?
I'm afraid the analogy does not work. For one thing we do not say that everything we do is "from" God. I do not sit here idle and then receive an instruction from God to go sin, and then do it. It doesn't work like that. Likewise the Palm Pilot analogy doesn't work because if you leave it alone it just sits there and does nothing. If God leaves us alone, we actively sin.
Try reading the Bible, even the parts you don’t believe in. It’s somewhere in Psalms where it says that God made man a little lower than the angels.
If everything is predetermined and God is completely directing you, then aren’t you as a Palm Pilot program?
How does it work? How does it differ from a Palm Pilot program? And remember that we have as much access to Calvin’s works as you do!!!!
Well, here’s the problem.
If you absolve yourself of any responsibility for your life, then that goes against Rev 20 as well as Matt 25.
If you say that God is responsible, then how do you account for the Judgements as to what you have done? I understand that there is a relief that somebody else is responsible for what you’ve done, but Calvin doesn’t have the Gospel proof, never mind the NT proof.
The “elect” don’t get a pass. You, as well as me, have to stand in front of the Lamb and answer for our lives. We have to answer for our talents. We have to answer for whether we fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, read to the blind, visited those in prison, counselled the Calvinists, and redeemed the Reformed. If not, we’re going to be be cast into hellfire forever.
I just hope that He judges my little forays into FR to be worth something.
***...counselled the Calvinists, and redeemed the Reformed. If not, we’re going to be be cast into hellfire forever.***
Take lots of icewater.
All my sins are ALREADY forgiven. All of them, including the ones I do tomorrow and next year. Jesus paid it all. I do not own my salvation, Jesus does. And none that the Father gives to the Son will be lost. Jesus is the redeemer, and he has my salvation in his hands. That is why I love him so much. You love your church, because that is where your salvation lies. I love Jesus, because he has my salvation already. He will stand with me on the Judgement day and all my sins will have been forgiven. No payment required, because Jesus already paid for my sins.
Then how do you explain Rev 20 and Matt 25?
I admit we’ve got our hands full with you lot!!!!
But if, and this is only if, we bow to the Gospels as the Word of God Almighty, and follow all of their precepts, and we view the NT through the prism of the Gospels and the OT through the prism of the New, and follow them as well as we humanly can, then, and only then can we possibly stand in front of the Lamb, with the Book before him, and aided by the Blood that He shed for us, can we look at Him and ask for His Judgement to allow us into everlasting life with Him.
Hopefully, Heaven has got the real Irish Guinness in quantities that this hemachromatosis sufferer can tolerate. Icewater is what you put your strained ankle into.
I give you scriptures and my theology is built on the totality of God's inspired word. Scriptures should be interpreted through other scriptures, rather than anyone declaring that favored sections are right and disfavored sections are wrong. Jesus quotes from OT scriptures all the time, and affirms their truth. Yet, some people are unhappy when we do the same thing. :)
It is not the Catholics that do not adhere to the instructions of Christ. [Matt 16:19, Matt 18:18]
But those instructions must first go through layers of interpretation that lead to a very predictable result. First, the binding and loosening verses must be interpreted to transfer a certain measure of supernatural powers from God. THEN, the further interpretation must be made that these powers are transferable from person to person, at the will of the Church. With God's powers come many possibilities.
***But if, and this is only if, we bow to the Gospels as the Word of God Almighty, ***
I see it as the BIBLE as the word of God. Why discount the OT and most of the NT?
If you ONLY follow the gospels, why even think about Revelation?
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