Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
All the church is is the institutional equivalent of national Israel insofar as it is the outward, visible representation of the covenant people of God. You seem to be erroneously assuming that by saying "the Scriptures gave us the Church" I view them as some sort of institutional charter. That's not at all what I meant.
Your historical overview is misleading. Some churches read their own set of "Scriptures." couple of hundred years later, they (church hierarchy that you deny) agreed on the majority of books, but still continued to read some books (scrolls that were later rejected (Epistle of Barnabas, for example), while rejecting some scrolls which were later accepted (Relation of John, 1 and 2 Peter, 3 John, etc.). So either way the Church, in order to select the inspired text and reject the non-inspired (some 200 circulating scrolls) had to be lead by the Holy Spirit.
I never said the Holy Spirit did not guide the Church in formally recognizing the canon of Scripture. What I said is that the Scripture was Scripture well before the Church formally recognized it as such. That itself is a Scriptural fact.
Surely, you don't believe the HS left the Church along with that disobedient priest, Luther?
Institutionally, I believe the Holy Spirit left the Roman Catholic Church by the time she rejected sola fide at Trent. That is not to say that there are not Christians still within her institutional bounds who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. From an institutional, creedal standpoint though, the Roman Catholic Church ceased being a Christian church at Trent.
I say that in the spirit of your previous posts and the desire to make sure we all know where the other stands.
Now if you'll forgive me I have to depart from this conversation until tomorrow since I'm heading to barbershop rehearsal and won't be back until late.
May you all have a blessed evening!
Sigh. Again with the 33,000 denominations stuff. Some days, I wonder why I even bother.
In this case, the Apostle Paul (see I Timothy 5:18).
God willing, I'll elaborate more tomorrow.
Amen. Great post. I'm really awed by the strength of the testimony of my FRiends on this thread.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper." -- Psalm 1:1-3 "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
ping to 584
Because someone has to (try to) keep them honest...
"Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD." -- Proverbs 20:10
How many altar boys have obeyed their leaders and found themselves being molested or raped by those who had been authorized by your church to be their leaders and who were later sheltered by those who authorized them?
That's beautiful.
God, and only God "appointed" His Apostles. God chose to "appoint" Paul an apostle and He didn't think it necessary for men, or a man, to choose His Apostles.
The "Doctrine of Apostolic Succession" is a man made doctrine, not supported by Scripture. Feel free to invent any doctrine you wish. It is not incumbent on me to take you seriously.
-A8
Precisely the truth. Amen!
And if the Holy Spirit is leading us then the fruits of the Spirit will be in evidence and our lives will be harmonious with the teachings of Scripture.
It's just not that difficult to understand.
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit... Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -- Romans 8:1-4;26-28"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
***In psychology that is known as projection.***
In politics its known as being a democrat :>)
Child abuse is compelling evidence that God did not appoint that person to that position. God would not ordain a child molester to be in a postition of authority over children. So if the Church appointed them, then the Church acted against God's will and without the authority of God.
How many such priests have there been? I dare say that this phenomenon has been going on under the radar for centuries.
Why?
Do you believe —as I do— that it is possible to do something without authority from God to do it, but not against God’s Will?... The Catholic Church, I believe, does much that is without God’s authority, but does not go against God’s Will.
? He asked for proof. I gave him proof, but have rec’d no reply. It’s a pity when one’s beliefs are not on solid ground, but it’s time to man up.
The fact that some heretics site Scripture in defense of their heresies does not in any way negate the truth of Scripture and its correct understanding via the Holy Spirit. The devil quotes Scripture. Does that mean I cannot understand the difference between correct teaching and lies?
The RCC (and thus you as we've seen here) can't argue from the Scriptures because your beliefs are so contrary to the Scriptures.
So all you can do is say "prove it." We "prove it" the same way Paul proved it -- by examining our lives in light of the word of God.
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." -- 2 Corinthians 13:3-6"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
I guess he wants me in His church. What about you?
Amen...
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