Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Prior to the Pentecost the Holy Spirit made His work on an extraordinary basis, and at Pentecost the promise of Christ to send the Paraclete to His Church was fulfilled, and the extraordinary presence became ordinary indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
OK, there is a case for that. I suppose I would respectfully disagree because all salvation is based on regeneration, then and now. Regeneration is only possible by the indwelling of the Spirit because our spirits can only become alive by this indwelling. We hold that the salvation model is the same for OT saints and the rest of us, i.e. grace through faith:
Rom 8:9-11 : 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
My opinions are actually not all over the map. They may seem so to those who are not familiar with Orthodoxy. On occasion I will reference it to official doctrine, but I am not here to do everyone's homework. My job is not to evangelize Christians.
Also, some of my opinions are not supported by the Church. I express them as my opinions. If they are not what the Church teaches, I presume error on my part. I still want to know why.
I have a copy of the RCC catechism and some of the doctrines are not biblically referenced.
That's because you are not using the Bible the Church used form the beginning. Most of the praxis of the Church is carryover form Judaism. Next thing you will tell me that's not biblical either.
You mean you don't sing new choruses and jingles?
No we don't. We love it the way it was established. It's timelessness, not trendiness. Would you want to change your parents every 10 years or so?
***Would you want to change your parents every 10 years or so?***
Only if they’ve messed their diapers. (sorry, couldn’t help it :>)
You think so? I think prevaricating is when some Joe, who calls himself a "Christian," finds someone with similar convictions and calls it a "church" while dismissing the entire Corpus of Christianity as guilty corruption, false religion and of hijacking the Holy Spirit.
Let me get this straight: God give people the "elect" a desire to please Him. And then the go around saying "I want to please the Lord, I want to please the Lord, I want to please the Lord...," ad infinitum, "choosing" to please Him "freely?"
Houston, we have a problem...bleep.
I don't know what is worse, the assertion that God treats a segment of humans He created as pampered and spoiled kids who can do no wrong, or that He programmed them to please Him.
There was no salvation prior to Christ. Everyone was subject to death.
Mark to Suzy: Are you heading East? Well, congratulations. This is great news. What was the final straw that broke your theological camel’s back?
She is doing no such thing, Mark. Suzy is "Orthodox Presbyterian." I guess that means "true Presbyterian."
St. Paul did not believe in Christ until he brain was exchanged in an instant with a new operating system. It was none of his doing, or so he says.
What is interesting is that it won’t be the church or the church fathers who will stand as advocates with those who trusted them in their interpretation and who must give account of their salvation
Why should anyone give account of his or her salvation when we didn't earn it and we can't purchase it? It's either given or withheld, Rreformed theology says. So, pray tell, what are we acocunting for?
1) The word of God cleanses those men whom Christ died for, those who are "the called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)
2) The reformed do not say "the bulk of men will wind up in the everlasting fires of hell." I'm a post-millenialist. I believe the word of God will transform the world, and men from all nations and races will hear with ears given by God and believe in Jesus Christ, by the will of God.
Besides, the article that began this thread concerns your pope's concerns that Protestant churches are defective, so it seems you guys are the ones restricting salvation.
Once again you confuse the issue with rhetoric and straw men. No one said that God’s elect can do no wrong. The very fact the God chose them shows that they were not able to choose him because of their sin. Also, They don't go around saying the things you implied, but they are the only one CAPABLE of pleasing God, because they ARE his children.
We all agree that God stands for all thsoe concepts, but we do not agree what these things describe other than God. There is no greater mystery than God Himself. No one can describe Him, so how can that be "specific?"
If that were true, then people who cliam to be religious would be praying 24/7/365. They wouldn't have time or desire for shopping, vacations, birthdays and weddings, fashion, and other things of the world.
If people were as addicted to God as they claim they are (like hypocritical Pharisees) they would dedicate more than one hour a week to God, and even that seems too much for some.
"...He that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD." -- Jeremiah 23:28
Why would you hold beliefs you "presume" to be in error?
Oh please, these are word games the reformed are playing, sophistry of the worst kind! You need to acquaint yourself with Mr. Luther who proclaimed that even if he committed 1,000 murders and fornications a day God would forgive Him.
So, while the "elect" are capable of doing wrong, they are forgiven, which is like saying "you did nothing wrong." I guess it pleases God when His children commit 1,000 murders or fornications a day and He can just wave their sins away...and just lovingly say to them "My darlings..."
Because the official doctrine is insufficiently convincing. I am willing to presume that I am wrong and the Church is right, based on its collective knowledge and intellect, even if official doctrine does not explain why it is so.
No wonder you think the Bible is "generalized" and does not contain "specifics" if you actually image hell is just a fuzzy state of mind. The Bible tells us hell is not, as your definition states, a "separation from God" because God is everywhere, even in hell.
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." -- Psalm 139:7-8"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Again, your argument is with Scripture, Kosta.
So then we may assume some of these opinions of yours that we've been reading for months are "wrong."
Are these opinions of yours "wrong" in the specifics or just in an overall generality?
Ah, so true. But you asked for the definition of "love," and Christ has given that to you, as anyone can read in Scripture.
I Cor 2;9 indicates "we" may not be able to even concieve of both Hell or Heaven currently..
Could be a dimensional thing..
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