Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[irishtenor]

Worshipping an infallible God :>)

Yes, you can say I am a 5-point Calvinist, as is my church.

[irishtenor]

Only my pastor.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God is the first cause of all things. You need to read your Bible more and then you won’t be so surprised by what it contains.

[kosta50]

Kosta, your argument is the exact same one the atheist makes -- "prove it." A-G is correct. We "prove it" by reading and understanding and debating from Scripture because we have been given faith that the Holy Spirit leads our study

 

I can't help if atheists use the same method. Labeling a method does not prove it wrong. Neither does saying "We 'prove it' by reading and understanding" really prove anything.

 

But I submit to you that when you read KJV, for example, you will not know that part of 1 John 5:7-8 is a fraud (in red letters).  You will read it and accept it as "inspired" word of God.

 

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one—1 John 5:7–8 aka Comma Johanneum

 

The fact is that this is a later addition, penned by someone other then the author of 1 John. There are other such examples throughout the Bible, all of which point to the conclusion that we really don't know what we are reading because what we are reading may not have been said by Christ or was added at some point by someone other than the inspired author.

 

Now, the "spirit would lead" us to consider the text in red as genuine, because it expressed clearly the Trinitarian concept. This might further "lead" us to believe and proclaim that the Scripture really does give us Trinitarian doctrine as plain as it gets. But, the truth, which you cannot discern from just reading, tells us that it doesn't.

 

How do we know that this section is a fraud? Thanks to Church records. None of the Church Fathers who refer to 1 John 5:7-8 in their homilies have the part outlined in KJV. None of the copies older than the 6th century have it!

 

If we did the solar scriptura folly, we would all believe this is not so. But records show that the fraud was committed and once we know fraud was committed by more than one individual when it comes to the Bible, then we must conclude that we really don't know what we are reading or understanding, do we?

 

There there is no original and no reliable copy of the Bible, or any of its individual books, we cannot really state with any degree of certainty that any of the were written by the people they say were written by, or that they contain nothing but inspired truth of God.  We simply don't know and cannot trust the "spirit leading us" either.

 

So, appealing to the "leadings" in the Spirit may be as deceiving as the devil who altered the scriptures. But, then, he does appear as the angel of light, doesn't he?

 

You, for some reason, do not believe in the ability of Scripture to answer all and any questions worth asking and answering regarding our salvation and God's instructions for our lives

 

For all the reasons stated above.

 

You, for some reason, place your faith in other men and fallible groups of men and an intricate and imperfect system of Greek nomenclature while decrying the ability of the Holy Spirit to move whom He wills where He wills

 

It seems that such men and their writings point to the fact that not everything you read in the Bible is pristine or true, and that letting the "spirit" lead you is unreliable because you really don't know who or what is leading you.

 

[D-fendr]

Most define free will as the ability to thwart God's will.

I'm not most then. Or, I wouldn't say this is how most men define it, but rather an error in construct. Anyway, the rest becomes moot for me.

thanks for your reply

[D-fendr]

Only my pastor.

Hey, that's a start! :)

Without going down the whole Apostolic Church road, we could maybe agree that it can be useful to seek guidance from spiritual elders and that it can be necessary at times to have another to check with at least on the big errors or hurdles we may be facing.

thanks for your reply.

[irishtenor]

Oh, I seek guidance from many sources, books, video, etc, but i always reference them against the Word of God. That remains my truth.

[D-fendr]

I understand.

I’m just taking my points where I can get them - no matter how small.

;)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Then give us your definition of free will.

[D-fendr]

Pretty standard: The freedom to make choices within one’s range of capabilities.

[suzyjaruki]

It seems that such men and their writings point to the fact that not everything you read in the Bible is pristine or true, and that letting the "spirit" lead you is unreliable because you really don't know who or what is leading you.

Given the difficulty with written words being pristine and true, how can oral teaching be even close to pristine and true? One word mispronounced could change the entire meaning of what was said. Have you ever played the parlor game, Gossip?

[kosta50]

Given the difficulty with written words being pristine and true, how can oral teaching be even close to pristine and true? One word mispronounced could change the entire meaning of what was said. Have you ever played the parlor game, Gossip?

Yet the Gospels were taught by word of mouth for at least 30 years after Christ left. And the Talmud, the parallel basis for Hebrew Scriptures, is based on orla tradition.

All this only adds to the puzzle and warns not to take things on their face value, especially the neat, perfumed 16th century Bible composites.

[MarkBsnr]

My Bible says that God is the source of all good, not evil.

I’m not that surprised.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The fact is that this is a later addition, penned by someone other then the author of 1 John.

That is conjecture on your part.

The point you miss is that when one part of Scripture is unclear, we need to search the rest of Scriptures to understand God's meaning. Scripture interprets Scripture, and the Trinity is declared throughout the Bible.

A correct and comprehensive reading of Scripture is no where near as difficult a task as you make it out to be. In fact, men have been doing it for centuries. Men who only knew one language. This is because if the Holy Spirit wants to reach a man through Scripture, He will make Himself known.

As God wills.

But possible conflicting interpretations pale in comparison to the egregious missteps of the RC (and to a lesser degree the EO) who insert so much foul error and outright blasphemy into their worship.

The simple fact that you can read the Second Commandment and still fall to your knees in front of the stock of a tree is so clearly counter to God's word that you lose almost all credibility in anything else you assert.

"And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." -- Matthew 15:10-

[Dr. Eckleburg]

So the verse from Isaiah is not in your Bible?

Better check again.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Given the difficulty with written words being pristine and true, how can oral teaching be even close to pristine and true? One word mispronounced could change the entire meaning of what was said.

Excellent point.

Christ and the Apostles all refernced the written word of God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The freedom to make choices within one's range of capabilities.

Can a dead man walk?

[Petronski]

Upthread, it was asserted that God intended the Holocaust.

This is the sickness that Calvinism has wrought.

[hosepipe]

[.. It seems to me he(hosepipe) doesn't think we need the Bible...take it up with him. ..]

You're spinning what I said.. like a top..
I didn't even imply the bible was not "needed"..
Merely the bible without the Holy Spirit is just a book(library of books)..

But then, we do have the Holy Spirit to highlight and teach bible passages..
And lift it far beyong DOGMA.. "the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives LIFE"..

Actually the Holy Spirit can teach the Bible even if YOU cannot READ.. are blind, don't know braille, and are not very smart.. and the bible is not even translated into your language.. The Holy Spirit transcends religion, all religion.. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE.. and are the nexus of the bible.. The bible leads to them, they don't lead to the bible..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

This forum gives all of us a good opportunity to say something of weight and substance.

Try it sometime.