Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Alamo-Girl]

So very true, dear brother in Christ! Thank you for sharing your insights!

[MHGinTN]

I love your posts so much, I just broke my own self-imposed exile from these religious haughtilesson threads. Have a day of bountiful blessings in the Lord today, Sister. :^)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much, dear brother in Christ! May God ever bless you.

[hosepipe]

[.. The treasure of the Kingdom of Heaven is here now. Wandering upon the earth some will 'find' it. Is it possible to 'find' such a treasure?.. ..]

SHuuuush... there will be MORE for US....

[hosepipe]

[.. You’ve just said God intended the Holocaust. ..]

Without the German holocaust there would BE NO current ISREAL..
The Jews argued for centuries about returning to the Holy Land..
Adolph cinched it..

Note: by the way there were other holocausts with the Jews.. just not as blatant..
Did God cause or allow the holocaust?.. could be... God is pretty smart..

[kosta50]

Yes, it's anecdotal, but it was very real to me

I don't doubt that for a minute, but that's where the argument ends.

[D-fendr]

But if God just stays out of it, and watches from the sidelines

Dunno why you keep to this illusion. Are these the only options you can conceive of: No such thing as free will or God stays out of it?

[kosta50]

Lucky for them that Jesus left the Holy SPirit to handle all that(literacy stuff).. you know, the paraclete/comfort'er.. If he didn't the people would be in the hands of the clergy.. like the Jews were when the Lord was murdered.. by clergy..

So, then you really don't need to read the Bible at all, right? It's all that Gnostic inner knowledge that "guides"...?

[D-fendr]

No church is perfect, because they are run by men.

And you, too, are a [hu]man.

The Scripture is perfect

But it does not read itself or determine its own meaning. Luther and Calvin derived quite different meanings and their followers more still.

Whatever criticism you have for Churches run by imperfect men can also be laid at yourself. In both cases we have Scripture + man +...

Whatever you reject in man because he is man, you reject in yourself. You can oppose a church or all churches, however if you do so because men are imperfect, you would have to reject yourself to be consistent.

[D-fendr]

Sometime a gardener has to prune a few dead or dying branches in order for the tree to blossom. That doesn’t mean the the plant is dead, but it might have died if the pruning hadn’t taken place.

Ah, the Counter reformation. ;)

I really do appreciate the tone of your post. If only it had been an attempt to prune! The reformer gardeners unfortunately left the tree and planted a different one.

thanks for your post..

[D-fendr]

God foreknew the Holocaust before creation, yet He created anyway. He could easily have prevented it, or not created the world to go in that direction, or not created at all. Why didn't He?

We know we travel myopically when pondering the reasons of God; however...

Two possible alternatives illustrate the point: A) He wished man to have free will even knowing the Holocaust would happen B) He caused the Holocaust.

Either way we go with evil in the world, we face quandries; however, the answers led to by determinism are quite worse.

[Alamo-Girl]

So, then you really don't need to read the Bible at all, right? It's all that Gnostic inner knowledge that "guides"...?

The point should be that knowing the Scriptures is not enough.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matt 22:29

We must be born again (John 3) - and indeed, the Spirit will lead us (John 15-17, Romans 8) There is no substitute.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

Paul, for instance, was arguably the most educated of those Christ personally chose as an Apostle. But Paul didn’t know anywhere near enough – nor could he, or did he, learn it from men:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19

As I understand it, you, kosta50, have dismissed Paul as a “Gnostic” so you probably will also dismiss my testimony on the same basis. That is fine by me, go where God leads you.

Nevertheless, many of my other brothers and sisters in Christ will probably agree that the language we speak to one another is spiritual per se and must be spiritually discerned. A non-Christian cannot "get it:"

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. - I John 4:4-6

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. I Cor 2:10-16

Jesus Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Praise God!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

I should have pinged you both to my post 3512 above for the equation is not "Scripture + man" but rather "Scripture + God" - regardless of the labels we wear.

[hosepipe]

[.. So, then you really don't need to read the Bible at all, right? It's all that Gnostic inner knowledge that "guides"...? ..]

No its the Cargo Cultism of the so-called Eucharist that is Gnostic..
The wafer is the Idol and the Cargo is perceived..
Among protestants the ceremony is a meaningful metaphor..
Among other clergy the idol is a/"the" reason for being..

Its true the BIBLE can be worshipped.. as an Idol.. as can the "missa" or wafer..
All christian clergy can become a Used Jesus Salesman..

The "bible" needs the Holy Spirit to decode it..
Without the Holy Spirit the priest or pastor is merely a Shaman..
A Shaman making noises waving "feathers" and other amulets, talismans, and charms..
Much like a roman catholic priest.. or Used Jesus Salesman.. as a protestant..
You know, people that have HIJACKED the Holy SPirits place in peoples lives..

[Alamo-Girl]

All christian clergy can become a Used Jesus Salesman.. The "bible" needs the Holy Spirit to decode it.. Without the Holy Spirit the priest or pastor is merely a Shaman..

Colorfully and truly said. Thank you for your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[MHGinTN]

Oh my, now you will be anathema to shamans ... you know, the feather wavers (or senser wavers) on this thread.

[D-fendr]

the equation is not "Scripture + man" but rather "Scripture + God"

I don't get it. We're not involved in reading and interpreting scripture?

[hosepipe]

[.. Oh my, now you will be anathema to shamans ... you know, the feather wavers (or senser wavers) on this thread. ..]

OR they will throw their feathers to the ground.. spit on their talisman's and tap into the real power of the Holy Spirit's wonderful life changing "charisma" instead acting like they already are tapped in.. When they are really lonely dirty children holding on to a "teddy bear".. cause it's "theirs" and thats all they know..

Let's hope.. 10/4..

[Alamo-Girl]

Man is on the other side of the equation, i.e. a man's spiritual understanding comes from God directly and by His revelations in Scriptures.

Or to put it another way, if man tries to obtain spiritual understanding by Scriptures and his own reasoning - which is to say, without God's leading - he'll end up anthropomorphizing God - imagining a small "god" his puny, mortal mind can comprehend.

[D-fendr]

Or to put it another way, if man tries to obtain spiritual understanding by Scriptures and his own reasoning - which is to say, without God's leading

I think I can agree with that. The way it was formulated threw me. I put it Scripture + Man + ... to indicate pretty much the same phrasing. There's still "man" involved however you define man.