Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[xzins]

It is the problem with foreknowlede, Petronski. Saying that God foreknows everything doesn't really shield any criticism at all. He creates even though he knows BEFOREHAND about floods, famines, plagues, pestilences, tragedies, wars, maniacal killers, and broken hearts on senior prom. Why not do it differently?

In your case, if God sees you dying tonight, when are you gonna die no matter what choices you make?

[Petronski]

As I said, you cannot separate foreknowledge from causation. I can’t help you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for including me in this sidebar!

Indeed, I took your remarks, dear brother in Christ, to be a musing - much like our previous discussion of the gemstones in the foundation of New Jerusalem.

Also, I would suggest it is a good idea not to get troubled over multiple instances in Revelation - i.e. twelve pearl gates in New Jerusalem v. the pearl of great price. The Spirit also appears as seven in Revelation - though we recognize Him as One in God, i.e. the Trinity.

To God be the glory.

[Alamo-Girl]

And I recognize you, dear MarkBsnr, as a brother in Christ!

[D-fendr]

What difference do any of your choices make in the outcome?

If I choose not to get in a car that day, I won't die in a car accident that day.

My choices still matter. God foreknew my choice.

[Alamo-Girl]

But those of "us" that follow the Holy Spirit's leading "DO".. The Holy Spirit can and does lead us into all truth.. At least as much of it as we can absorb(or are open to)..

Indeed.

Praise God!!!

[tiki]

Of course I believe the HS dwells in me. I believe that the HS leads me when I read Scripture and that Scripture can speak to me in my situation. But...my interpretation of Scripture is a private revelation, meant for me at this time.

The purpose of the indwelling HS is to lead me to all truth. Why do think I'm Catholic? Because the HS led me there, kicking and screaming, meek and frightened, ignorant and defiant in my ignorance and in answer to a guilty, angry challenge to God. There was no denying the direction and there was no denying the end result.

The CC chose the Scripture that conformed to its beliefs. The Scripture is infallible because the CC is infallible because the HS is infallible because Jesus is infallible, because God is infallible.

[Marysecretary]

He died for our sins, past, present and future, but it’s still up to us to ‘judge ourselves’ and confess our sins to God and to ‘one another,’ if you have someone you can trust and who is a friend. That’s how we STAY cleaned up. Mxxx

[hosepipe]

[.. Indeed, I took your remarks, dear brother in Christ, to be a musing - much like our previous discussion of the gemstones in the foundation of New Jerusalem. ..]

I knew and know you did.. Pearl is unique among precious "stones"/substances.. an almost living stone.. not that any of the other precious stones are "chopped liver".. They are unique also.. There could almost be a whole Thread on this subject the typology of biblical precious stones and other substances.. (gold, silver, brass, wood, hay, and stubble).. and more.. Like literall all the implements of the tent of meeting..

I think a thread on all biblical Typeology would be too much unless the thread would be just on typeology as a real spiritual metaphorical operator..

[stfassisi]

The word of God is liveing and operable and is attended by the Holy Spirit(paraclete) to the perfecting of the church.. and IT will divide soul from spirit.. as it doing to YOU right now.. BE CAREFUL.. dear one..

It is you who needs to be careful because it is your scriptural misinterpretations that is dividing the Body of Christ.

You may claim the Holy Spirit is leading you but there can only be one Truth. 2000 years of clear consistent teachings of the Saints and Martyrs is proof enough for me .

There are thousands of Protestant sects in the world today with more new ones appearing every week. Many use the same Bible, yet each interpret it differently, and consequently they end up teaching "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8-9). The sad part is that they all try to justify their existence, and thus their actions of further dividing the Body of Christ by claiming.... "The Holy Spirit Told Me".

This is not in line with the teaching of Jesus Christ, as He called for "One Fold with One Shepherd" (John 10:16). These divisions of the Body of Christ are in opposition to the teaching of Holy Scripture, so how could it ever be possible that the Holy Spirit is prompting those who cause them?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, THAT YOU ALL SAY THE SAME THING; AND THAT THERE BE NO DISSENSIONS AMONG YOU, BUT THAT YOU MAY BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN ONE MIND AND IN ONE JUDGMENT." 1Corinthians 1:10.

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." Matthew 12:25

The Bible is very explicit that those who cause these divisions are not from GOD, so therefore, the Holy Spirit could not possibly be prompting them.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth into the world. By this is the spirit of GOD known: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh , is of GOD. AND EVERY SPIRIT THAT SEVERS JESUS, IS NOT OF GOD, BUT IS OF ANTICHRIST, of whom you have heard that He is coming, and now is already in the world." 1John 4:1-3

More Scripture... "And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, BECAUSE IT NEITHER SEES HIM NOR KNOWS HIM. BUT YOU SHALL KNOW HIM, BECAUSE HE WILL DWELL WITH YOU AND BE IN YOU." John 14:16-17

"Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, has come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. For He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He will hear He will speak, and THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU." John 16:12-13

What message do these verses convey?

To whom did Jesus speak in these verses? This dialogue was during the Last Supper and the only ones' present with Him were the Apostles. He told them that the Holy Spirit will dwell within the Church which He will found. He was not speaking to the masses here.

The truth is ONE, and is the person of Jesus Christ (John 14:6), that the Spirit certainly cannot declare a differing truth to each of the thousands of divisions of His Body.

There are three spirits, anyone one of which could be the one who is prompting a person.

1. There is first the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, and His prompting is from GOD. 2. Then there is the human spirit which manufactures the prompts through the imagination and other human traits. 3. Finally, there is the evil spirit and its prompting is straight from Satan.

The Spirit of truth is in the Church of truth, the Church which Jesus Christ founded.

Time to get work done! I wish you a Blessed day!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your glorious posts and for sharing your testimony and for your encouragements!

When we love God surpassingly above all else - we will believe Him and learn to trust Him, realizing that the blood of Christ is enough, that God knows every thing every where and every when, that we need not fear anyone or anything being able to pluck us from His safekeeping.

Then, we can truly "let go" and "let God." (Romans 8, I Cor 2, John 15-21 et al)

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:6-7

Praise God!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Oh, I would love to see a thread discussing the physical properties and metaphorical import of the precious stones throughout Scripture, including pearls and minerals. But the thread would have to be limited to that, because as you suggest, it could get much too large to be helpful if all metaphors were considered at the same time.

[tiki]

I think part of the difficulty of people getting this is that they think of God in time and not eternity.

[hosepipe]

[.. There are thousands of Protestant sects in the world today with more new ones appearing every week. Many use the same Bible, yet each interpret it differently, and consequently they end up teaching "another Gospel" (Galatians 1:8-9). The sad part is that they all try to justify their existence, and thus their actions of further dividing the Body of Christ ..]

I agree with that above..
The protestants are protesting that your denomination says(RCC) it is not a denomination.. when it is..

I don't agree with ANY denomination.. that Harlot and daughters of the Harlot (in Rev).. Who did and are doing business with the "Kings" of this earth.. are denominations include the RCC and various EO's..

The truth is the church is not now and never could be divided.. denomination cannot divide the church..

Denominations, even yours, are merely clubs.. Jesus did not forbid clubs.. pity.. Clubs are allowed.. But the church is not a club it is a FAMILY.. Could be that Jesus allowed clubs to categorize the believers.. for future judgement.. which WILL happen..

The Overcomers overcame.. but they overcame what?..
By the blood of the lamb and the word of their own testimony they overcame....
They overcame DENOMINATION.. silly..

[blue-duncan]

“You recognize that what the Church put together by the end of the 4th century represents the scriptures”

Many churches had already accepted the books included in canon by the various church leaders in the councils so the councils did not put together the scriptures but simply ratified what the churches were already accepting as inspired and authentic.

“In this sense, we can understand possible imperfections in the books of the Bible, since they are the result of the cooperation between the all-perfect and perfecting Divine Author, the Spirit, and the imperfect human author.

Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit.”

That’s an incredible statement for it puts in question the perfection of Jesus since by your theology, his conception and birth was the result of divine-human cooperation.

[hosepipe]

[.. Time to get work done! I wish you a Blessed day! ..]

You too Fassi.. back atcha..

[suzyjaruki]

Your testimony (kicking & screaming) is true of many of us. If God would not draw us, we would not come. :)

This is Sola Ecclesia in a nutshell: The CC chose the Scripture that conformed to its beliefs. The Scripture is infallible because the CC is infallible because the HS is infallible because Jesus is infallible, because God is infallible., You did not provide scripture that speaks to the infallibility of the RCC because there are none.

It isn’t enough to say that the Holy Spirit is infallible therefore the church is infallible, because I am led by the Spirit, you are led by the Spirit, but we are not infallible.

[xzins]

The expression “rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic” is applicable to thinking one’s choices matter when one’s destiny is already foreseen by one who never, ever makes mistakes.

And if the maker of the Titanic could have made a different Titanic, but didn’t, and put you on the sinking one, then that means your choices never mattered. What mattered was which Titanic to make.

[xzins]

God knows the very nano-second of your death. Your choices will make no difference. At that moment in time you will die.

[D-fendr]

Time is part of it, you're right. And reading more into omniscience than is there, or less than is there. Same with omnipotence. Plus the theology that says "if man has free will, God doesn't get what He wants."

There's a lot invested in this system of theology. I'm just trying to focus on one part.

thanks for your post..