Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[P-Marlowe]

Accepting your position, and for the sake of discussion, perhaps it would be ok to speculate on the ramifications of whether there is any reason or if there is no reason for God choosing one person for salvation and the another for damnation?

You can do whatever you want. You are the one who insists that you have "free will". Indeed, apparently you think it is your free will which saves you.

Speculate away. Why did God choose you? Are you good enough to be saved? Smart enough? Wise enough?

Or did God save you because he loved you? Or did God save you at all?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your testimony, dearest sister in Christ! Indeed, it is almost the same.

I thank God for you. And I thank God that your father has you. May He bless you and all of your loved ones, always.

[Alamo-Girl]

Glorious post, dear brother in Christ, thank you so very much!

The two-fold ministry of Do'ing and Speaking is performed by literally everyone.. Even when you SHUT UP you(we) are preaching.. Amazing spiritual revelation this is..

So very true.

Praise God!

[Alamo-Girl]

It was the consensus of the scholars. Again, from post 1973

According to Charlesworth’s Pseudepigrapha, the scholars believe that the language behind 2 Enoch which survived only in Slavic was Greek. The oldest available manuscript is fourteenth century. Dates proposed for the origin of 2 Enoch range from pre-Christian to late Middle Ages, but the book carries a general dating in this collection as “late first century AD.”

[Alamo-Girl]

But then again, look at the "works" such people actually perform. There is a often a tremendous gulf between the high-sounding words and the actual deeds as judged by their practical effects....

BTW, such operations used to be understood as magical, the works of sorcerers. Nowadays, you can be a respected scientist, or politician, or judge, and engage in such magic with a free hand. And the public just laps it up.

Let's coin a term for this: demonic hypocrisy. The "progressives" out there -- "progressive" because they seek to supplant God and His order so to refashion the world in their image -- thrive on it....

Indeed. Thank you so very much for your outstanding post!

[kosta50]

Thank you A-G. I know what post 1973 says. I was asking where do they get the idea than an alleged non-existent original of 2 Enoch "carries a general dating" of "late first century AD." On what is this belief based? Are there late 1st century fragments of 2 Enoch in Greek in someone's collection? Or is this just a conjecture that gets accepted as "fact?"

[Alamo-Girl]

They don't just pick dates out of thin air. In the absence of physical evidence, they look at content, style of writing and other such "clues." And they argue of course.

In this instance, the extremes were wide - but the consensus was late 1st century A.D. for the original which was Greek (again, a consensus).

[hosepipe]

[.. There is a often a tremendous gulf between the high-sounding words and the actual deeds as judged by their practical effects.... ]

True... great swelling words are merely semantics..
So many think "we"they" have come farther than a Cargo Cult mentality..
I know some that worship the bible and others that worship "other" things..

Sometimes it looks like some people think God is a moron..
A moron that is fooled by some vehicle filled with some cargo..
The cargo being a "contract" or document of some kind..
Or alleged agreement between God and a Clergy of some sort..
Used to control "the Tribe"..

Those ignorant of what an idol is or can be and the cargo that ALL idols carry..
How pristine it is (the concept), "wherever two or three gather together in my name", " there am I in the midst of them".. Too simple really.. maybe thats why some prefer idols instead..

[kosta50]

How is my view inconsistent with being made in God's image?

Because it proposes that God created some people for salvation and some for condemnation. Last time I checked, God mad man in His image, not some but all human beings. According to your view, then, not all humans are human beings. That is a pretty radical departure from our understanding of humanity in social and legal terms. 

This view appears to be based on the Protestant interpretation of Paul. Where in the Bible does it say that God created some people for damnation? That some shall be condemned is not part of God's intent . God did not make refuse. We become refuse when we reject God. But, the Reformed theology suggests that God predestined before foundations of the world who shall be saved and who damned because He is "in control."

How much of God's sovereignty does He have to surrender to man for us to be created in His image?

None. He is in control, but we are not wicked because He made us wicked. We are wicked because we choose to be wicked. We are created in His image abut that image is tarnished and lost through our wickedness, not because God wants us to be wicked.

Here, the gatekeeper simply opens the gate and doesn't care whether any of them are saved or not. Some will wisely follow and some will not, but the one does not care which

No, the gatekeeper opened the gate because he wants to free all  those who are behind the gate. But he does not force those who refuse to be saved, who reject his overtures. The whole stumbling block here is based on your Reformed view that God leas some to salvation and some to damnation.

In the Reformed mindset, if they can't hear His voice, whose doing is that? 

God does choose. He didn't have to choose anyone, and we are thankful that He chose some

But that's the other way of saying He didn't have to reject anyone, but He chose to reject some. So, according to the Reformed view, those who are damned are damned because God chose them to be damned, because He pre-fabricated them to be discarded.

Well, putting aside that baptism has nothing to do with salvation

Baptism is not salvific in and of itself if someone decides to fall away from faith. But baptism is the first step in the Church and as such offers greater probability for salvation than someone who isn't baptized.

I thought you were kidding because I've never heard you give credit to layman for the saving of others before

The saving is done by God at the final judgment. We are merely obeying the commandment to preach to all the nations and to baptize in the name of the Holy Trinity. The rest is up to God. But, if we fail to do what we are commanded to do, is He going to save those we don't reach anyway? If so, why did He give us the Great Commission? Just to keep us "busy?"

I've even seen you arguing against the belief that the Magisterium effectuates salvation

Only God saves. The task of the Magisterium is to safeguard the orthodox faith so that those of us, all of us, who stray, can get back on the narrow path and thus assist us from falling away.

In both cases, the Great Commission and the Magisterium emphasize man's cooperation with God as essential. He is the Healer, and we are the patients. In the spiritual Hospital (His Church) the healer heals, but the patients must cooperate with the Physician. A patient who refuses to cooperate shall die not because God will kill him, but because the patient is terminally ill (in case you didn't notice).

I thought that the "official" line on this was to agree with us, that only God does the saving

There is no disagreement, except that it must be that your side agrees with us, given that we have been around for at least 1,500 years before your side, and that we haven't changed our teaching about that.  We are not exactly speaking of a "parallel universe" here.

Fulfilling the Great Commission is important because it is in obedience to God to be used by Him in the carrying out of His saving work

He is not "using" us like we are some coin-operated robots. He gave us a homework that He expects us to finish. God gave us the capacity to be responsiblr moral beings; not some wind-up dolls.

 But that work is all His, He just lets us watch sometimes

Then those people we don't baptize and teach are also "His" work and not our failure. Again, I am asking you, is He going to save those people we don't baptize? If yes, then our work is meaningless. If no, then we are responsible for our humanity's well being and we better do a better job than we have been doing so far, because the elect (not those who have been given blanket salvation, but those who have been tasked to do work) to preach the gospel and baptize the nations, shall also be judged for their deeds.

[kosta50]

In this instance, the extremes were wide - but the consensus was late 1st century A.D. for the original which was Greek (again, a consensus

Thanks. I wanted to make sure that was a consensus and not based on some hard evidence. Although using dates and styles and fonts, etc, one can narrow down an era with high degree of certainty (just as we can say with high degree of confidence that such and such a movie was made in the 1950's or 1960's, etc.).

I just find that such approach might be difficult by retro-translating from the 14th century Slavonic into 1st century Greek.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply.

The question was about predestination coming off your thought in your post. About what would the ramifications be if: God chose person A for salvation and person B for damnation based on a reason. Or if A and B were selected without a reason.

I think those would have two radically different possible ramifications.

[Forest Keeper]

I never said [that] and no Christian in their right minds believes that Jesus didn’t know that he’d be raised from the dead. Let’s consider that settled if we may.

Yes, you never said that, but I was pointing to the inevitable conclusion from asserting that "might" can only mean one thing in the Bible for the passages we are talking about. If Jesus DID know, then "might" or "may" can also be words of certitude.

What is the Judgment for? If there is only the elect and the non-elect, why bother Judging?

There are two judgments, one for the separating of the elect and the lost, and one for rewards in Heaven. While I have no idea about the mechanics of how either will work, I understand your question about "why bother if it's already in the bank"? I'm not sure, but it works both ways. If purgatory is real, then anyone there already knows he will wind up in Heaven eventually, so what's the point there? Only God knows the list for certain. We as believers have the ability to know about us, but some will fool themselves.

If we are judged according to our deeds, then there is no elect and non-elect. With a few exceptions, of course. We have some elect. But the vast majority of us are to be Judged.

I have never seen this view before. Who do you say are the elect, that they are not judged? I'm not aware of any scripture saying or implying that anyone escapes judgment.

[D-fendr]

Are there bad seats in Heaven?

[Forest Keeper]

You keep trying to make predestination a thing for all humans, when it clearly is not. Where are the verses that support the concept of predestination to hell (with the exception of Judas - which is in the Bible)?

Here are a few examples:

1 Kings 20:42 : 42 And he said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Because thou hast let go out of thy hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people. KJV

Prov 16:4 : The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. KJV

Rom 9:9-13 : 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. KJV

Matt 20:16 : So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. KJV

This Matthew verse (also Matt. 22:14) really explains the idea behind double predestination. That is, it is the logical conclusion to the fact that God predestines anyone to salvation. All of the elect, that is, all true believers, are predestined into Heaven. Therefore, everyone else was likewise predestined to hell by simple default. Above, the "many be called" refers to the outward calling made by God to all men. "Few chosen" refers to the inward call given only to the elect.

[Forest Keeper]

Would you say that enabling grace is offered and it becomes saving grace when it is accepted?

Well, if I was an Apostolic that's what I'd say. :) But as for who I am now, I would say that enabling grace and saving grace are the same thing, since all who get it are saved. If we are born under original sin, then we are unable to come to Him without added grace. Those whom God does not predestinate are not given any such grace, as to do so would be a very cruel tease, imo. :)

[Forest Keeper]

To them it is real, but the real reason they choose what they choose, they're unaware of. They make a choice unaware of why they are making the choice?

From God's POV I would say that is true for the most part. I suppose some have been taught about predestination before converting. I wasn't. But in any event, "real" is in the eye of the beholder. To the person, it IS actually real.

They are either choosing in the dark or the choice is an illusion. If there's some way that's making a choice in our normal sense of free will, please elaborate.

Frankly, in the normal sense of free will, you're right, it's not making a choice. One question to ask is what is "free will" free OF? In this case it has to be free of God's intent. If God is in full control and chooses His elect for His own reasons, then we are not free to thwart that plan. If God is not in control, and men choose themselves for salvation, then they make free will decisions according to the normal use, and God's will is either thwarted by, or changed by, or determined by those decisions.

Only Vito Corleone would call that free will. :)

Perhaps, but our real GOD-FATHER only does it for our benefit. :) I don't think the complaint box in Heaven is going to be too busy when all the elect find out the fix was in. :)

[Forest Keeper]

The problem as I see it is when we oppose two options: Total Predestination and total Free Will. It becomes as if we can look at it either/or and whichever we pick leaves some problems in the other. So the options or the terms/concepts are problematic. Or the answer cannot be known using the sphere and tools we’re applying. When you have a question phrased, “is it either A or B” and neither answers fully, then the problem is in the question.

I appreciate what you're saying. The classic battle lines appear to be drawn between God's sovereignty and man's free will. I can give a little in saying that in general terms, man is free to sin since God does not "force" anyone to sin. In addition, once we have been set free via belief and the indwelling of the Spirit, then we are free to do good works for God (consistent with God's plan of course :). Maybe that's ...... "something". :)

[Ping-Pong]

Are there bad seats in Heaven?

I don't think I could call any place in heaven as being bad but there are differences. For one, the type and maybe amount of clothing you wear depends on what you did while in your flesh body. Your works won't bring salvation but they are noted.

Rev.19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."

8.And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

14.And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

It mentioned what some wear but not others. There will be a difference. Also notice in Rev.20:11-12, that after the millennium "another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Another difference in heaven is shown when God tells us that the Levites (not the priests) that went astray with the house of Israel by worshipping idols will have to bear their iniquity. (Ezekiel 44:11-12). These were the 144,000 that for a time followed the anti-christ but before it was too late (the 7th trump and arrival of the true Christ) realized their error and waited for Jesus. That punishment would be (13) And they shall not come near unto Me to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

15.But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:

16.They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.

23.And they shall teach My People the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean

24.And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statues in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.

Are those verses speaking of the same souls as Rev. 20:4-5, those of the first resurrection?

......Ping

[Ping-Pong]

I meant to ping you both to post 2038. The question I have for both or either of you is this:

According to Ezekiel 44:10-16, do you believe that the only ones doing the services mentioned there of the tribe of Levi?

[P-Marlowe]

About what would the ramifications be if: God chose person A for salvation and person B for damnation based on a reason. Or if A and B were selected without a reason. I think those would have two radically different possible ramifications.

If you believe that God is omniscient, then the ramifications are the same no matter how you slice it. If God is omniscient and he chooses people for salvation solely on the basis of whether or not they choose to believe or they follow some set of rituals and he allows everyone else to be damned, then by allowing people to be born whom he knows will never do the right thing, then there is no difference between that result and the result where God creates everyone and he chooses (on the basis of his own criteria unknown to us) to save some and leave the others to their own fate (a fate that God chose for all of them when he created hell).

It is indeed a harsh reality, but the ramifications of the "free will" theology and the ramifications of the "predestination" theology are the same in the end unless God is not omniscient.

The only way to avoid the ramifications (i.e., the idea of a default double predestination) is to latch on to an "Open Theology" position, in which God really didn't know what was going to happen when he created the heavens and the earth and put man on the earth. But then if God didn't know the end from the beginning, then on what basis can he know that he will give anyone eternal life? If God does not know the end from the beginning, or he doesn't know what is going to happen tomorrow, then how does God know that he will not die, or cease being God or that he will not change his mind?

I think the best solution to the problem is to realize that God is sovereign and that man is responsible. We know that God chooses his Sheep, and we know that God has known who his sheep are from the foundation of the earth. Our job as Christians is to do all we can to bring the gospel to every person and to do all we can to bring them kicking and screaming into the arms of the Lord. Ultimately if they are his sheep, they will find rest there. If they are not his sheep, they will run away. Why they come and why they run is not really our concern. The judgment of men is in the hands of a just and loving God and men will stand before God without an excuse. But it is God who determines who is or is not going to spend eternity with him and not you and not me and that goes for us. It is not a "free will" decision by us that saves us. It is the free will determination by God that he has chosen us to be with him for eternity. Any choice we make (for him or against him) is a choice that is in accordance with his will.