Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[adiaireton8]

Can you how me that in scripture?

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you are asking. I assume you are asking for Scripture support for the Church's teaching that baptism incorporates us into Christ. See Romans 6:3-5, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Acts 2:41, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, John 4:1.

Who instituted baptism? Do you know?

Christ instituted Christian baptism. See John 3:22.

-A8

[kawaii]

try exactly during the life and times of the apostles; potestant worship is a sham invented in the 1400s.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen, dear brother in Christ, amen!

[Alamo-Girl]

Excellent points! Thank you!

[Alamo-Girl]

I don't particularly care what you do, as I do not care one whit if someone is a Catholic or a Protestant or whatever they want to call themselves as long as they claim they are bought by Christ. I am a Christian first and foremost. The salvation of men does not reside in any man or group of men. It resides in Christ and Christ alone. I do not look to my Church for my salvation. I look only to Christ.

Amen! Thank you so very much for your testimony and for sharing your insights!

[adiaireton8]

Spiritual succession is the only one that matters.

How would you answer the question I asked in #177?

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights and those wonderful Scriptures! And thank you for your encouragements!

Christ told us to "Be not afraid; only believe" (Mark 5:36). The simplicity of that is profound.

Precisely so. But alas, man has a tendency to wander beyond the commandments of God, explaining what He really meant and creating all kinds of doctrines and traditions - some harmless, some not. Compare the Talmud to the Tanakh or the dogma, doctrines and traditions of any Christian Church to Scriptures.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deuteronomy 4:2

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. – Mark 7:7

[adiaireton8]

I don't particularly care what you do, as I do not care one whit if someone is a Catholic or a Protestant or whatever they want to call themselves as long as they claim they are bought by Christ

Then why in #15 did you retract your claim about Jehovah's Witnesses? They too claim that they are saved by Christ.

-A8

[MarkBsnr]

Well, there were numerous attempts before that, but Luther, Zwingli and the boys finally put it all together and got their big break.

One school of thought states that the Catholic Church is responsible for the success of the Protestant Reformation, since up to that point, the heretics and the wanna-be popes were all dealt with. If the Church had dealt with Luther, then we wouldn’t be in the state that we’re in - with tens of thousands of different denominations and TV evangelists etc.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for the ping to this sidebar!

Personally, I find mortal names adorning Christian ministries to be off-putting to the point that I am inclined not to even listen to whatever that organization has to say, e.g. "Jimmy Swaggart Ministries."

[P-Marlowe]

Then why in #15 did you retract your claim about Jehovah's Witnesses? They too claim that they are saved by Christ.

They deny the divine nature of Christ (as clearly revealed in Scripture) and they claim they are saved not by Christ, but by their own works.

Actually that wasn't my claim at all. I just reworded that silly response at post 7. It was a cut and paste error. Kosta apparently decided to lump the JW's in with everyone else. I didn't catch it right away.

I'm not as infallible as you.

[P-Marlowe]

so now you’re finally admitting that the rest of Christianity doesn’t have the truth...

I assume you are being facetious. If not, then my deleted comment stands.

[kawaii]

there was supposed to be a smug question mark at the end actually...

[Alamo-Girl]

Which of the Protestant denominations accurately represents the Apostolic teaching/doctrine?

Every assembly of 2 or more Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and following His leading and not their own - regardless of denomination, regardless of whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, non-denominational, etc. - regardless of whether a formal meeting or a house church or a gathering around a dinner table or a campfire or virtually over telecommunications, the internet, etc.

[kosta50]

It wasn’t based on Peter and the others drawing straws, either

Acts 13:1-3 tells us that +Paul was ordained like all others after Christ left, by laying of the hands.

PS credit for this should go to k2fourever, who's having problems posting.

[adiaireton8]

P-M,

I understood why you made the mistake in #15. That's not what I'm asking about. But what you said in #161 is not compatible with what you did in #15. In other words, what you did in #15 shows that merely claiming to be "bought by Christ" is, in fact, not sufficient to be a Christian, in your view. The person must also, as you just said, not deny the divinity of Christ, and must not claim that he is saved not by Christ but by his own works.

So it is not as simple, in your view, as claiming to be bought by Christ.

JWs do claim to be saved by Christ, however. They believe works are necessary too, but I have never heard a JW deny that he is saved by Christ.

-A8

[P-Marlowe]

JWs do claim to be saved by Christ, however. They believe works are necessary too, but I have never heard a JW deny that he is saved by Christ.

A JW would deny that YOU have been saved by Christ because YOU are not a JW.

JW's (like some Catholics) are hyperdenominationalists who think that they and they alone are the exclusive purveyors of truth on this planet.

I don't make that claim for myself or for my church. Jesus Christ alone is truth. To know Christ is to know Truth.

[Alex Murphy]

The biggest obstacle is the misleading reporting done by the main stream media who totally botched the report on this document. I cannot help believing it was done on purpose to cause division among Christians and rancor against the Catholic Church and against Pope Benedict XVI.

Reading between the Vatican's lines

...look at what did change in the Latin last week. Many phrases are highly similar, but now the term defectus occurs exactly where vulnus had been used before! In other words, the real story here is that the Vatican plagiarized itself in order to clarify what the term “wound” – an old news story from 1992 – really means.

That clarification, in my opinion, gently and deftly steers the discussion away from the topic of vulnus (“who wounded whom”) to the topic of defectus (“self-wounding”). Because lack of unity is consequent upon all Christians “failing” and “doing less than they might.”

[P-Marlowe]

there was supposed to be a smug question mark at the end actually...

Then there should have been a smug question mark at the end of my deleted post. :-)

[adiaireton8]

Every assembly of 2 or more Christians filled with the Holy Spirit and following His leading and not their own - regardless of denomination, regardless of whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, non-denominational, etc. - regardless of whether a formal meeting or a house church or a gathering around a dinner table or a campfire or virtually over telecommunications, the internet, etc.

So the Apostolic teaching is that the doctrine of infant baptism is right and wrong, that the Pentecostal doctrine of speaking in tongues is right and wrong, that snake handling is both right and wrong, that the Catholic doctrine of the papacy is right and wrong, that the ordination of women is both right and wrong, that "justification by faith alone" is both right and wrong, that sola scriptura is right and wrong, that dispensationalism is both right and wrong, etc., etc., etc. Is that your position?

Or does "following His leading", mean conforming to some specific set of beliefs? If so, then what is that specific set of beliefs?

-A8