His prayer was so intense, he forgot that he had prostrated upside down. :)
Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Gazillions of years? There were no angels before the Creation. In fact, there was no time either, no years to count, HD! Angels were created as His hosts and obligate servants (the biblical word used is closer to a "slave"), as God's messangers (aggelos), not His "fans." In the OT, angels are tasked with genocides in the name of God, as God's executioners.
Well, why don't you just throw the bible in the trash
Well, if you are gong to call starving/raped children in Darfur "fools for Christ" I think that would be the right thing to do. Your verses were out of order, HD. You need to concentrate on the Beatitudes (Gospels). It is by far mor edifying to read what Christ had to say than any other author.
Literalism is certainly one of those and unbiblical private interpretation of the scriptures is another. By claming indwelling Spirit, in a way every Chrisina is claiming some degree inspiration. But naturally, one say that a dedicated physician inspired someone to become a doctor, or that a book was inspiring, or that one is inspired by God's goodness and love. Inspired simply means "moved" (quickened). Yet we also believe that the so-called truly "inspired" were only the Apostles, and the Church as a whole (through Ecumenical Councils).
What about someone like +Symeon the New Theologian or +Gregory of Nyssa or +Anthony the Great or +Athanasius the Great ...hmmm? What does one say about the inspired nature of writings of Christians who attained theosis? Because they could err, does that mean they couldn’t be inspired? Surely that can’t be true, Kosta. The Apostles were great doubters and deniers. I think The Church means exactly what it says in the Kontakia.
“Angels were created as His hosts and obligate servants (the biblical word used is closer to a “slave”), as God’s messangers (aggelos), not His “fans.” “
That’s not quite true. Job 38:7 (”When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”) places angels singing God’s praises before the creation of man.
What were the MULTITUDE of angels doing in Revelation 5?
"Synergy" from Answers.com: "1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects."
Each side contributes so that the result is greater than either side could have created on its own. Do you really think God fits into an arrangement like that? I think you believe God needs us to get what He wants much more than I ever suspected. :)
The trapped miners who died in September certainly hoped they would be rescued, yet it was their time to die, regardless of their prayer. For all we know, they may be in a much better and happier place now, but they did not want to die; they wanted to live and their prayers, and the prayers of their families and of the entire nation, indeed, resulted in their demise.
I was with you until the last line. :) How did the prayers of everyone RESULT in their demise? You acknowledged right away that it was their time to die. I agree. So, if no one had prayed, might they have survived?
Phil 4:19 : And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Tell that to the starving and persecuted Christians in Darfur.
Another disfavored Biblical verse is apparently declared wrong.
His prayer was so intense, he forgot that he had prostrated upside down. :)
Thanks much for the explanation, MLG. It is very nice to meet you. I have very much enjoyed reading your posts on this thread. :)
This obviously presents a problem because it makes the Bible a fallible document in need of repair. Presumably, that would only be possible through an INFALLIBLE consensus patrum. That would clearly raise the consensus patrum above the level of scripture. However, the Orthodox I know here would probably not agree with that conclusion. What is the answer?
In addition, we all call the Bible "God's Holy word". If God is Holy in essence, and His word is Holy, then how can His word contain error? For this question we can throw out translation and copying errors because in your quote above it was specifically asserted that there was original error by the original writers.
They used the Septuagint in over 93% of the cases, FK. The ratio is very lopsided in favor of the Septuagint.
Even if so, a 93% use of the Septuagint does not equate to a 93% rejection of the truth of the Masoretic text. In what percent of the verses is there a material difference? I ask because I don't know, and I included BD on the ping list because I have some memory of him speaking on this before.
How can you compare this to the Protestant's innovation of 0% Septuagint and claim they did not introduce anything new and heretical? Is that not the same as saying the Apostles were "wrong?" Luther knew better?
Do you call the KJV, for example, a heretical document? Is it THAT drastically different from your Bible that you cannot get God's truth from it? That sounds strange coming from you since you believe that most of the Bible is allegory anyway. In the big picture, I always thought the main material difference between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text was the Apocrypha.
Well, the New Testament prohibits [private interpretation], and yet the entire Protestant movement is based on one's private interpretation, so someone had to introduce it, and it wasn't the Church. :)
Were not many of the early Fathers accused of heresy on specific issues? To what could this have been attributed if not to private interpretation?
By who? Bishops, the Pope, or other Fathers of the Church?
Well, if you are gong to call starving/raped children in Darfur "fools for Christ" I think that would be the right thing to do. Your verses were out of order, HD.
So, then why didn't the Church add the writings of +Symneon the New Theologian and others to the canon of scripture?
Amen, Dr. E. Thank you and thanks for the wonderful scripture. I always love it when you know of scripture that I hadn't even thought of that backs up something I say. LOL! It's very encouraging.
Did I say the angels were created after man was created? I simply said they did not exist before time existed, i.e. "zillions of years" in Harley's parlance. However, angels did not exist before Creation. As to how soon after wards did God create man is a different story.
Your verse also says nothing as to the actual timing of the angels singing praises...except that it was after the formation of the earth. So, I take it HD believes in evolutionary time scale when he says "zillions of years."
Why not go to the source and see how the Church defines this term (which is a Greek term and which was used by the Church in the same sense as today for 2000 years, which is eaons before Answers.com became the "norm").
The "combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects" aplies to man led by the Higher Power. Our synergy with God does not enhance God (LOL!) but man. Your out of context dictionary quote is a straw man, FK.
I agree. So, if no one had prayed, might they have survived?
No, but this proves my point that Calvinsits see prayer as an obligation which has no effect on anything.
How did the prayers of everyone RESULT in their demise?
They prayed for life and they received death. And your own quote from Phil 4:19 says "And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus" suggests that they did not know their needs.
From this we can draw two possiblitieis: (1) the verse is not true but misinterpreted or (2) those who truly believe will not pray because we (robots) don't know what our needs are. Number 1 is very likely. Number 2 is Calvinism 101.
FK: Phil 4:19 : And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.
Kosta: Tell that to the starving and persecuted Christians in Darfur.
FK: Another disfavored Biblical verse is apparently declared wrong
Please prove it right in terms of "being fools for Christ" next time you see a starving child. If this life is so short of "glorious riches in Chrust Jesus" then why are all Calvinsits still around on this filthy earth, and why are they not hastening their departure? (David Koresh and Tom Jones alert!)
I believe history has been made. This is the first time I know of that you actually seem to indicate that you agree with the OT and the literal creation of 6, 24-hour days. When you have thought just about everything else in the OT was a myth, you are supporting the literal 6-day creation??? Fascinating.
As for me, I have never subscribed that creation was 6, 24 hour periods. I think the scriptures are inconclusive on this so rarely will you find me arguing about this. I think it's pointless without clear scriptural evidence.
I will add that I do not believe in the evolution of man although plant and animal life around them could have evolved. Adam and Eve could have been on this planet in the garden for millions of years before the fall. We have no way of knowing. People like to calculate the age of the earth by estimating biblical generations of 120 years but this reminds me of when I tried to estimate the depth of a pond based upon the slope of the ground. I estimated the pond to be 5,000 feet deep.
But man, unlike animals, is unique and depraved; and it all stems from Adam.
By who? Bishops, the Pope, or other Fathers of the Church?
Presumably, by authority of the Magisterium. Obviously, not all the writings of the Sainted early Fathers are considered part of your Holy Tradition. Why is that? Wasn't Origen considered an early Father? Yet, he was excommunicated. In addition, many of the original Reformers, now considered heretics, were humanly inspired by Augustine. All I was saying is that there were lots of Fathers who went off the reservation, as compared to the majority, on at least one issue or other. I'm asserting that the reason for that must have been the accusation of private interpretation.
Were not many of the early Fathers accused of heresy on specific issues? To what could this have been attributed if not to private interpretation?
None of the Fathers were accused of heresy for their theologoumenna (hypotheses). Those who were anathematized are not the Fathers of the Church (i.e. Origen, Montanus, etc.) because they professed as truth their heresy.
St. Gregory of Nyssa, one of the Cappadocian Fathers and a disciple of Origen, proposed—no doubt under Origen's Gnostic influence—universal salvation. Unlike his mentor, he later recanted this teaching and accepted the orthodox view that not everyone will be saved because of unrepetance of some.
Blessed Augustine of Hippo, likewise reached a point of "no return" with his teaching and recanted many of his postulates in a somewhat lesser known work of his (one of his last) titled "Retractions." St. Augustine realized that the turth of the Orthodox Faith is contained in the Catholic Church and he, in the end, derferred to the Church.
The Church always accepts those who have strayed into heresy as long as they recant their heretical teaching, so there is hope for all Protestants. :)
“What were the MULTITUDE of angels doing in Revelation 5?”
They were practicing for when the Red Sox would finally win the World Series in 2004 and 2007.
“Did I say the angels were created after man was created?”
The job cite was an answer to this statement:
“Angels were created as His hosts and obligate servants (the biblical word used is closer to a “slave”), as God’s messangers (aggelos), not His “fans.”. They were praising God before they were ministering agents to man.
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