Posted on 07/10/2007 8:00:34 AM PDT by Bladerunnuh
<<<”Why can’t everyone worship as they choose and everyone else stay the hell out of their lives INCLUDING the Vatican?!!!”>>>
Right now your statement is totally correct with “cafeteria” Catholics and the thousands of Protestant Denominations.
Cafeteria Catholics take what they like and poo poo things like contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage.
Protestant Denominations have no overall leadership and the majority interpret scripture as they “feel”.
So your suggestion that everyone “worship as they choose” is well underway.
I am doing no such thing as limiting the Christian Faith to the New Testament.
What I am doing, however, is establishing that the fullfillment of the Prophecy is the basis of the Faith.
All the pretext is exactly that- pretext. It builds up to, and boils down to “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...”
The actual event is what is important. (The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah- as per Old Testament prophecies... that come to a head in-and are put nicely in a nutshell into-... John 3:16.)
As you said, one cannot be without the other. But the result (the Message) is that God loves us! How much does He love us? John 3:16.
Now, if you want to get into “why” then that is far from my arguments. “Why” and “How” is addressed throughout the rest of the Bible. And yes, they are equally important. But- it is still the subtext for the fact that God gave His Son for us to live the Life Eternal.
You must mean this verse...
1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place of theirs and ours.
... or these...
1 Cor 10:32 Be without offence to the Jew, and to the Gentiles and to the church of God: 33 As I also in all things please all men, not seeking that which is profitable to myself but to many: that they may be saved.
... or this one...
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
... maybe you meant a different epistle...
Ga 1:13 For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews? religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God and wasted it.
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Php 3:6 According to zeal, persecuting the church of God: According to the justice that is in the law, conversing without blame.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
1 Ti 3:5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
Heb 12:23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect...
I will admit, I am not an English major... but I am hard pressed to find where Paul claimed he went about setting up his own churches. As I said before, Christ said He will build His Church. There is no contradiction in the Pauline Epistles with this view.
Now tell me? What do we do with St. Paul’s Epistles to the Churches?
Read them... and learn from them.
Your quote from St Augustine was his original opinion, he later changed his mind and wrote in “Retractations”:
“In one place I said ...that the Church had been built on Pter as the Rock...but in fact it was not said to Peter, “Thou art the Rock”, but rather “Thou art Peter”. The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him. He was then called Peter (the rock)...Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable.”
Peter had not a primacy over the apostles , but AMONG them, and Christ said to them, “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”
“For neither did Peter whom the Lord chose ...when Paul afterwards disputed with him ...claim or assume anything and arrogantly to himself, so as to say that he held a primacy and should rather be obeyed by newcomers.”
St Cyprian quoted by Augustine
“The Rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter.”
St Cyprian in De Catholicae Ecclesiae
“I believe firmly that by the Rock you must understand the unshaken faith of the apostles.”
St Hilary 2nd TRinity
“This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his faith (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church.”
St Gregory Nazianzen
(The apostles) aspired to the possession of Christ, who is truly his head, for the hed of man is the Christ, Who at the same time is the ONLY HEAD OF THE CHURCH...all the apostles are the foundations of the Church, the columns of truth ...from them flow abundant torrents of divine doctrine.
St Gregory of Nyssa Panegyric of St Stephen
“The word “Rock” signifies the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles.”
St Cyril of Alexandria Upon St John
“Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all - the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice.”
St Cyril
I will no longer respond on this subject. It is obvious that your explanation of where truth can be found is limited, since only you will determine what is germaine and what is not.
I will pray for you.
“The year 1428AH coincides almost completely with 2007CE.”
Also from Wikipedia.
I know it’s only a small passage, but I personally find it telling that Islam’s term for a year (in relation to their religion) is only partially reciprocated in using “CE” (as opposed to the reason it’s a “Common Era” ... the fact that it is the Year of Our Lord *AD*)
I refuse to accept a common-use website to attempt to explain to me the inner workings of any religion. Caveats be damned- it is NOT someone’s personal understanding as seen from within, but the end result of many hands.
By this very definition, the Catholic Church (in respects to it traditions) would likely not advocate using such a tool to be used as a religious source. This being that, short of the Church and the Holy See overlooking its entire operations, it is not “official”.
All “official” speak from the Catholic Church can only be repeated from prescedence, or made initially from the His Holiness himself.
I’m sorry bro, but I wouldn’t accept a “definitive account” of the Sermon on the Mount from Wikimedia either. It is not a religious text, nor is it a recognized religious authority.
I agree, we are on the same side.
The “semantics” though, is not the same.
Christ is the Message. The Bible is His story.
But the Message is still Christ. First and foremost.
LOL! Feel free to go here and read Homily 53 by St John Chrysostom... tell me whether you find it germaine to the issue under discussion. You will note when reading it that it doesn't contain the quote you referenced at all!
I will pray for you.
Thank you. Likewise.
My appologies if a snide attitude was conveyed.
I simply have a personal issue with individuals or authorities not being the sole understanding of that which is Holy.
I wouldn’t study Buddihsm over the internet and expect to walk into a Buddhist temple fully informed. I would also hold the same regard to your useage of Wikipedia.
Your individual account, or that of what is accepted as an “authority” on the issue would be accepted. (The Bible would be my first choice, and when discussing Catholocism, the Pope/ the Vatican.)
Again, my appologies for conveying a snide attitude.
I don't see one thing wrong with this. This false superiority Catholics feel pervades everything you say in your dealing with us Protestants. We do not accept your leaders, we refuse to let someone choose how we will workship and understand for us. That's all.
Kind of a tough benchmark to use when discussing a practice in Hinduism, don’t you think?
Apology accepted. Have a nice day.
Predestination vs Freedom of Will.
No apologies necessary. I'll still use it as a source if I feel it is appropriate. The only religious Authority I'll accept is the Bible as the direct Word of God. This doesn't mean that we can try and give a synopsis.
You don't understand the Church.
I know that wasn't meant as a joke, but it's definately funny. You're right, we don't understand the Catholic Church.
Early on, someone had the wisdom to point out something to the effect of “Good, we want people to believe their Faith is the right one. If they didn’t, it would defeat the purpose of Faith!”
And you don’t understand the church.
I think that’s what brought us here today.
You make a joke about it, but it is a very serious subject. Much of the history about the Church has been written by Her detractors. If you would reject the Church whose roots are in Christ Himself, you should at least come to know what it is you are rejecting. Many have “come back home” after serious study has removed the falsehoods they had come to believe and revealed the depths of the truths known to the Church.
Some here have referenced the Eastern Orthodox Church here as a more authentic church. They might be surprised to find out that the one biggest difference between us is the primacy of the Holy See. The Sacraments, Mary, the Saints, Iconography and other Protestant “sticking points” are not an issue between the two largest branches of Christianity.
May God bless you.
The Sacraments, Mary, the Saints, Iconography and other Protestant “sticking points” are not an issue between the two largest branches of Christianity.
That the majority of Christians fall under these two denominations does not mean that they are correct. To us, those are very important "sticking points". For example, I don't believe that Mary is "ever virginal", or that there are any Saints who could help me through intercessional prayer.
So, you hold that the only way to be saved (by re-birth) is to be blessed by the hands of people who share person-to-person contact through to Christ Himself?
One cannot be saved by the Word itself and accepting Jesus into their heart? They have to have a direct-line connection to Jesus through touch?
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