Posted on 07/04/2007 6:47:22 AM PDT by NYer
1. either too stupid to understand the nuances of Christs words, and He let them go, deceived,
I would say they were unwilling to trust. Had their faith been patient just a little longer, they, too, would have heard: "These words are Spirit..." In short, they were seeds sown by the wayside. So far as deceiving people, have you never read 1 Kings 22??? Have you never read Jesus explanation of His parables in Mark 4...spoken in parables so they they would NOT understand...."seeing they would NOT see..."
2. they knew that He was not speaking metaphorically and rejected the concept and Christ choosing to walk another path, exercising their free will to reject eternal life, the free gift offered, not forced.
I can't really put that point #2 together. Can you rephrase it?
It is funny how the Roman Catholics have built an infallible doctrine out of their misunderstanding of the reactions of people who were spiritually blind. They walked away because they did not understand what Christ was teaching. They did not understand because Christ had not chosen to open their eyes to the truth of his sayings.
The Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus is taken in the Eucharist.
“In Genesis i: 26, 27, 28.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness.”
“Us” and “our” denoting pronouns indicating more than one. Yes, the Father, The Son and Holy Spirit were all present at creation. They have been, are, and will be forever.
They certainly do seem to be arguing from the perspective of those who did NOT have faith, and not from those who waited on the Lord.
One of my favorite passages of scripture was Peter saying: “Where else would we go? Only You have the words of life.”
Did you not read my post? Go back and read it throughly!
I explained very clearly, proving from Scripture, that Jesus’ body after Resurrection is the same one as before, but that now He does miraculous things (such as appearing in a room when the door is closed). Of course it is the same one which Ascended into Heaven! Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. That is His whole, crucified Body and Blood, as well as His Soul and Divinity.
You know, if you really want the answers as to what Catholics believe about the Holy Eucharist, why don’t you read “The Lamb’s Supper,” written by Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian minister, now Catholic author and teacher. He explains, from the Book of Revelation, how Jesus is both the Paschal Lamb and the great High Priest and how it all fits together with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You would have all your questions answered. Mr. Hahn also made a series based on his book, and tapes or DVDs are available from the EWTN Religious Catalog. Use the search feature and type in “The Lamb’s Supper.” There are books, CDs, videos, DVDs, and audio cassettes available for this title.
http://www.ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/
You said:
“It is funny how the Roman Catholics have built an infallible doctrine out of their misunderstanding of the reactions of people who were spiritually blind. They walked away because they did not understand what Christ was teaching. They did not understand because Christ had not chosen to open their eyes to the truth of his sayings.”
First of all, you have no proof that Catholics “misunderstand” anything. We could apply that same idea to Protestants who have closed their eyes to the Truth! I could just as easily say: “It is funny how the Protestants are spiritually blind. Protestants turn away because they do not understand what Christ was teaching. They do not understand because Christ has not chosen to open their eyes to the truth of his sayings.”
Re pt #2 the faithless disciples left knowing full well that Christ meant that His Flesh was real food and His Blood was indeed real drink, There was no confusion or deception. His words are indeed spirit and life, since they convey the mystery of the Eucharist.
You love that verse about Peter (John 6:68), yet you reject the idea that the Church was founded on Peter (Matthew 16:17-19). How can you love one verse and reject another?
What kind of "loving" god deceives his creatures unto their death? Have you now rejected free will?
You are wrong about me.
I do think God used Peter in founding the church. You’re talking about someone else.
You can read all about it in the first third of the Book of Acts.
You have no proof of that.
We could apply that same idea to Protestants who have closed their eyes to the Truth!
You not only could, but you do.
I could just as easily say: “It is funny how the Protestants are spiritually blind.
I'm sure you believe that. There are, in fact, a lot of Protestants who are Spiritually blind. Scott Hahn was one of them.
Protestants turn away because they do not understand what Christ was teaching. They do not understand because Christ has not chosen to open their eyes to the truth of his sayings.”
Well I believe that Catholics do not understand what Christ was teaching.
At least one of us is wrong.
LOL!
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:21-23
So what is the will of the Father???
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The will of the Father is to believe on His Son...
And again,
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Just because you believe on Him, doesn’t mean you are saved.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Salvation is not assured, as St. Paul tells us: “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12
The verse does NOT say, work for your own salvation...It says 'work out' your salvation (that you have received)...And why do that??? A study of the rewards in heaven will reveal that...
This verse has nothing to do with working 'for' salvation or losing your salvation...
You wrote: “It DOESN’T say that eternal life may be available at some time if we endure to the end of our life” Your statement is not true. Scripture most certainly DOES say that we must endure to the end. These are the words of Jesus:
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” Matthew 10:22
“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Mark 13:13
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Are you a Gentile??? If yes, this chapter does not apply to you...I'm a Gentile...It doesn't apply to me...
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Are you commissioned to do these things??? NO??? Then it doesn't apply to you...
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
You see that??? This group of people are the last generation to preach the gospel before Jesus shows up a second time...It's a period of time, and it's not an individual's lifetime...None of this applies to you doctrinally...And none of them are Gentiles...
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
We're not talking the end of someone's life...We're talking the 'END'...
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I realize you folks like to claim this is Jerusalem, 70 A.D. but that's of course is impossible...
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
If this has already happened, you would be in heaven, and, your church fathers would have written volumes on these earth shattering events...They are conspicuously quiet on the issue...
The scripture is 'endure to the end', of this tribulation...Which surely hasn't taken place yet...
Jesus is talking to a group of people who don't have a clue about the 'adoption or the Gentile church...
You wrote: “I believe the scripture” Good. I know that you will believe the verses above, and will thus change your opinion.
Of course I do, and hardly...Study, Study, Study...Put down the catechism and pick up the bible...
And tucked away in Mark here is one of the 'keys' to the Kingdom...
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
One can easily see in Matthew that the endure to the end is a message to Jews...No Gentiles...The scripture says so...And, enduring to the end is the end of a specific period of time, not one's lifetime...It is the end of a tribulation period...The scripture tells you that...It is not the end of the city of Jerusalem in 70 A.D...The Gentile church was born long before 70 A.D. and this message doesn't include Gentiles...
This is yet future...After the church is called out...The Gospel is published among ALL nations...The message is to the Jews...
Study, Study, Study...
Christ didn't decieve anybody. He spoke in parables. Why did he do that?
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:10-15 KJV)
Have you now rejected free will?
Where in the Bible does it teach that man has a "free" will?
Man's will, like everything else in the universe, is subject to God's will. If God chooses to open one man's eyes and leave another man blind, who are you to complain? Obviously by speaking in parables, Christ chose not to reveal his truths to some people while revealing those truths to those whom he had chosen to be his disciples.
Well he's God... and we're not.
***At least one of us is wrong.***
Yes, well. I guess we’ll just have to wait to talk to Jesus personally to find out which of us it is.
I have read the Scriptures cover to cover (several times), I know Presbyterian theology quite well (having been brought up in a staunch Presbyterian family), I have read the Early Fathers of the Church, I have studied history, and I came to the conclusion that Protestant theology is un-Scriptural, non-historical, goes against Jesus’ wish that we “all be one” (John 17), and is just totally illogical, as its arguments don’t hold up from Scripture. I believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter (the Rock), and that it teaches the Christian Faith in its entirety. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
***There are, in fact, a lot of Protestants who are Spiritually blind. Scott Hahn was one of them.***
Have you ever read any of his books? Don’t make an opinion statement unless you can back it up with facts! If you want to say that you’ve read his books and disagree with his arguments that’s one thing, but to just put forth an opinion based on nothing, is just silly.
If you don’t believe that the church Jesus founded on Peter is the Catholic Church, you don’t believe it.
***You can read all about it in the first third of the Book of Acts.***
You are certainly condescending. As I explained to P-Marlowe, I was brought up Presbyterian and had a thorough grounding in the Scriptures, having read them several times, cover to cover. Your arrogance is unattractive.
You assume that both of us will be granted that opportunity.
I believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter (the Rock), and that it teaches the Christian Faith in its entirety. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.
I think so.
Have you ever read any of [Scott Hahn's] books?
If I step in something squishy in cow pasture, I don't need to taste it to know that it isn't something I'd want to put in my mouth. I have better things to do than read Scott Hahn... Like clean this squishy stuff off my boots.
***If I step in something squishy in cow pasture, I don’t need to taste it to know that it isn’t something I’d want to put in my mouth. I have better things to do than read Scott Hahn... Like clean this squishy stuff off my boots.***
And with that, I bid you good day, as you are determined to use this thread to insult those of us who disagree with you.
This is a lamentable post.
Invincible ignorance at its finest. Scott Hahn was a rabid anti-Catholic who was also a scholar. He knew more about Scripture studies and the protestant point of view than most average folks. Yet, he let his heart be open to the truth and convinced himself through his studies that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ. It is worth a look if you aren't afraid to test your own certainty.
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