Posted on 06/16/2007 5:09:43 PM PDT by stfassisi
Well every time that Ruth's name is mentioned in scripture, it is followed by the adjective "the Moabitess", except for Matthew 1. So then does that mean that the "Ruth" listed by Matthew is not the "Ruth, the Moabitess" in the Old Testament as well?
Matthew does not include that adjective "prostitute" beside Rachab's name because after the fall of Jericho, she was no longer a prostitute, and she was certainly not a prostitute after Salmon took her for his wife, and most certainly not after the birth of her son.
The Israelites were not supposed to do a lot of things according to the Law of Moses, but they did them anyway, and God used even their disobedience in His plan of redemption. And a Jew [Israelite] was a Jew [Israelite] from the inside out not the outside in, and Rachab and Ruth had more of a heart for the God of Israel than probably most Jewish [Israelite] women of their day.
God sees the heart and He saw it in these case and rewarded them both with Jewish [Israelite] husbands and sons, through which they were sanctified into the congregation of Israel.
Nonsense --- is this some kind of Possibility Thinking?
Ruth is clearly said to be a Moabitess --- and that is not because she is living in the Plains of Moab or even in Moab itself. She and others are identified on the basis of national origin, familial descent --- not location. There were Moabites, Edomites, Ammonites, etc all living and migrating from one area to another all the time. Did that change them from one nationality to another as they migrated??? No.
And there were Edomites, Amorites, Moabites, etc all living in the Land of Israel. Did their living in Israel or even amongst the Israelites make them Israelites???
The map in my Bible shows that the area given to the Reubenites overlapped with the Moabites and that border between them was very fluid and floated back and forth over time. There were more than likely plenty of Moabites living amongst the Reubenites, and vice versa, and as the Book of Ruth says so clearly:
"And Elimelech, Naomi's husband, died, and she was left and her two sons, and they took themselves wives of the women of Moab" [not the Plains of Moab, but Moab, the nation of Moab]
BTW: If she were from the Plains of Moab, as you claim, and identified by her last known address, then the writer of the book of Ruth would have called her Ruth the Plainswoman :) --- but it doesn't].
She "was" a Moabite woman because she lived in the Israelite territory of Moab.....not the Kingdom of Moab. There were no genetic Moabite people left here. The King of the Amorites saw to that and then Moses took "The Plains of Moab" away from him. This was part of Israel for over 700 years and it was still called Moab.
Matthew does not include that adjective "prostitute" beside Rachab's name because after the fall of Jericho, she was no longer a prostitute, and she was certainly not a prostitute after Salmon took her for his wife, and most certainly not after the birth of her son.
The reason for this is very simple. Matthew is not referring to the prostitute....James and Paul are! Rachab was not Rahab.
Nonsense --- is this some kind of Possibility Thinking? (Chip)
[Joshua 1:12-15] And to the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh, spake Joshua, saying, Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land. Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men of valor, and help them; Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD's servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.
[Joshua 13:8-12] With whom the Reubenites and the Gadites have received their inheritance, which Moses gave them, beyond Jordan eastward, even as Moses the servant of the LORD gave them; From Aroer, that is upon the bank of the river Arnon, and the city that is in the midst of the river, and all the plain of Medeba unto Dibon; And all the cities of Sihon king of the Amorites, which reigned in Heshbon, unto the border of the children of Ammon; And Gilead, and the border of the Geshurites and Maachathites, and all mount Hermon, and all Bashan unto Salcah; All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.
This used to be Moab also before the Amorites killed them all and took it for themselves. Moses then did likewise to the Amorites. This is why the land was still called Moab until the Assyrian dispersion 700 years later. Ruth was an Israelite resident of this Moab.....not the Heathen Kingdom of Moab.
“Mary Did You Know” has to be one of the prettiest songs ever!! I listen to it all year long!
Well some of them, along with Ruth, must have survived because Ezra saw them in the Land of Israel as late as the 4th century BC:
"Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites".[Ezra 9:1]
Would you say that Baoz is the same person as Booz?
Yes it is and the Kathy Mattea (?) version is my favorite. It brings tears to my eyes each time she sings, “Did you know you touched the face of God”. Wow, here I go again.....
My favorite version, and you should listen to it, is Kenny Rogers and the fat daughter of Naomi Judd...can’t remember her name....but it is FABULOUS!!!!! FABULOUS!!
That would be Wynonna - the other is the beautiful Ashley Judd, the actress.
I'll look for the version you're telling me about. I can't wait to hear it if it's better than the one I have.
I guarantee you it’s the BEST!! One day Hugh Hewitt played every version of this song but Missed the best!! Go figure!
You know....I think part of the problem here is that I pinged you too late in the thread.
[Numbers 21:26] For Heshbon was the city of Sihon the king of the Amorites, who had fought against the former king of Moab, and taken all his land out of his hand, even unto Arnon. The King of the Amorites had taken all of Moab away from them......to the River Arnon. This was about half of the Kingdom of Moab. The land above the river was now occupied by the Amnorites and the surviving Moabites lived below the river and south to Edom. This is directly east of the Dead Sea. Above the River Arnon and north to the River Jabbock was the captured territory of "The Plains of Moab". Here is where Moses settled the people prior to crossing the Jordan to fight the Canaanites. [Numbers 21:21-25] And Israel sent messengers unto Sihon king of the Amorites, saying, Let me pass through thy land: we will not turn into the fields, or into the vineyards; we will not drink of the waters of the well: but we will go along by the king's high way, until we be past thy borders. And Sihon would not suffer Israel to pass through his border: but Sihon gathered all his people together, and went out against Israel into the wilderness: and he came to Jahaz, and fought against Israel. And Israel smote him with the edge of the sword, and possessed his land from Arnon unto Jabbok, even unto the children of Ammon: for the border of the children of Ammon was strong. And Israel took all these cities: and Israel dwelt in all the cities of the Amorites, in Heshbon, and in all the villages thereof.
[Numbers 21:31] Thus Israel dwelt in the land of the Amorites. This area is called in scripture as "The Plains of Moab". North of the River Arnon, east of the Dead Sea and the Jordan River all the way north to Gilead. These lands previously belonged to the Moabites and they (the ones that lived there) were defeated by the Amorites. They (Amorites) now possessed "The Plains of Moab". Along comes Moses, Joshua and the Israelites and they take "The Plains of Moab" from the Amorites....killing them all: [Deuteronomy 2:32-34] Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.
The Israelites now possessed "The Plains of Moab". All previous residents had been killed. The Moabites who lived in that part of Moab had been killed earlier by the Amorites and Moses had now seen to it that the Amorites were destroyed. These 'Plains of Moab" are the areas that were promised to the tribes of Gad, Rueben and Manasseh if they crossed the Jordan and helped their fellow Israelites defeat the Canaanites. They did and then returned to these "Plains of Moab" which they then called home for about 700 years. This was where Ruth had been born and lived about 100/150 years later. She was an Israelite.....of Moab. This is the same as my wife being described as a German/Californian. California used to be the possession of Spain and Mexico but is now held by the U.S. We still call it California and my wife is accurately described as a California woman.
Baja California is still around but their northern territory has been held by us now for over 150 years. We still call it California.....and folks still live in Baja also.
You are correct. The Kingdom of Moab was still around years later....much smaller and a shrunken population....but still around.
Yup....it was fluid...that's for sure. It was the River Arnon: [Numbers 21:13][Numbers 21:26][Deuteronomy 2:24][Deuteronomy 2:36][Deuteronomy 3:8][Deuteronomy 3:12][Deuteronomy 3:16][Joshua 12:1][Joshua 12:2][Judges 11:13][Judges 11:18][Judges 11:22][Judges 11:26][II Kings 10:33].
There were Moabites, Edomites, Ammonites, etc all living and migrating from one area to another all the time. Did that change them from one nationality to another as they migrated???
They did not migrate into Israelite held Moab for at least three hundred years: [Judges 11:26] While Israel dwelt in Heshbon and her towns, and in Aroer and her towns, and in all the cities that be along by the coasts of Arnon, three hundred years? why therefore did ye not recover them within that time? This takes place in the early 1100 B.C. time frame and Israel is still in control of these lands. There is no mention of anyone floating back and forth over a fluid border. This is longer than the United States has been a country and Israel continues to control this land until the Assyrian exile (721 B.C.)....400 years later.
The reason I believe Ruth was not a Moabite woman of the Kingdom of Moab is really because of this scripture. [Deuteronomy 23:3] An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever. King David was only three generations down from Ruth and could not have possibly ascended the throne of Israel without making a mockery of God's words. To further teach that Our Lord would have descended from a marriage which was condemned by God's word would be further mockery.
[Ezra 9:1-4] Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonished. Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonished until the evening sacrifice.
Why do you think it would be O.K. for a Moabite to Marry Boaz.... but yet have Ezra speak against it in scripture 800 years later?
Check your map for the land under the United Monarchy --- Moab is well north of the Arnon River by then.
The reason I believe Ruth was not a Moabite woman of the Kingdom of Moab is really because of this scripture. [Deuteronomy 23:3] An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever.
To be accurate, Ruth was a Moabitess, female not a Moabite, male. That may seem like hair-splitting, but that is exactly the detail that the Rabbinical lawyers would look at. And while they were told in the Law of Moses not to give their sons and daughters to those within the land of Canaan, Ruth as a Moabitess was from outside of the land of Canaan.
Why do you think it would be O.K. for a Moabite to Marry Boaz.... but yet have Ezra speak against it in scripture 800 years later?
It is possible that she was no longer a Moabite in her heart, just as Rachab was no longer a Canaanite in her heart. After all that is what we learn from Paul in Romans --- a Jew is a Jew from the inside out not the outside in.
And they are types of the Gentile Church --- two women who wanted to be part of the Congregation of Israel so intently that they would leave their own people to do it. The God of Israel had to set the Law of Moses aside in order to accomplish it.
Here is a map showing the divisions of the tribes. Another map shows the Kingdom under David and Solomon. I still see Moab below the Arnon....directly east of the Dead Sea.
Tell me where to find your map for the "United Monarchy".
The King James New Scofield Reference Bible, Map 4, The United Monarchy shows Moab extending far north of the Arnon.
Also Isaiah in the 8th century BC records this prophecy regarding Moab in Chapter 15:
1The burden of Moab. Because in the night Ar of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; because in the night Kir of Moab is laid waste, and brought to silence; 2He is gone up to Bajith, and toDibon, the high places, to weep: Moab shall howl over Nebo, and over Medeba: on all their heads shall be baldness, and every beard cut off. 3In their streets they shall gird themselves with sackcloth: on the tops of their houses, and in their streets, every one shall howl, weeping abundantly. 4And Heshbon shall cry, and Elealeh: their voice shall be heard even unto Jahaz: therefore the armed soldiers of Moab shall cry out; his life shall be grievous unto him. 5My heart shall cry out for Moab; his fugitives shall flee unto Zoar, an heifer of three years old: for by the mounting up of Luhith with weeping shall they go it up; for in the way of Horonaim they shall raise up a cry of destruction ......
The cities of Ar [Aroer], Dibon, Medeba, and Heshbon are well north of the Arnon River and the Moabites obviously were residing there.
I do not have this Bible...tried to find it on line and ran across this. You may want to bookmark this as it seems to be very accurate.
Map of Ancient Israel It is clickable. Just click anywhere on the map and it will bring up the comments.
Isaiah's ministry lasted from 740/687 B.C. so he was present when the Northern Kingdom was taken captive to Assyria. In fact, he prophesied of this event. This would have been 721 B.C. The tribes of Gad, Rueben and Manasseh which occupied the "Plains of Moab" were part of the Northern Kingdom so this absence did indeed create an opportunity for the Kingdom of Moab to attempt a reacquisition .... you might say.
And of course this chapter 15 of Isaiah could also be yet in the future.
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