Thank God For the Magisterium

NCR ^ | June 10, 2007 | Mark Shea

[Mad Dawg]

OH! I get the difference, silly moi!. You are right. You're reading substitute like, um, aspartame for sugar - a replacement - not as sweet and possibly bad for you in large doses. Anybody who presents himself or herself as THAT kind of substitute for God is gonna be REAL bad for you (and worse for him/her-self!)

I was thinking more like "apostle" - so I was blurring the good distinction you are drawing. An apostle is like a minister plenipotentiary, or what legal eagles call an agent, for whose acts the principle consents to be responsible -- as long as the agent acts within his brief. WHen I was the Bishop's vicar, I was there to do what the Bishop wanted, not what I wanted.

I don't think 1 Jo 2:19-27 is about all the truth but the truth of the incarnation, that Jesus is the Christ. Is is the denial of that about which John is writing. And besides I Cor 12 stands. Diversities of gifts, not all get all, each gets some.

[OLD REGGIE]

Well to each his own oddity. I don't exactly see how vicar would be odd (heck, I once held that title -- in a mission in Mississippi. All it means is your somebody's representative. It's related to Vice - as in vice president, I hasten to add ...

And you do know there isn't some group somewhere in the Vatican with "Magisterium" on the office door.

How do you feel about "pastor"?

My two cents:

Matthew 23:
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant;
12 whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I believe this is an instance where we aren't expected to read every word of Scripture in an absoloute literal sense based on our current use of language. I think calling the humble Priest "Father Soandso", and calling the Pastor "Reverend Soandso" are not the examples which Jesus was referring to.

I do believe he was speaking of any man on earth who exalts himself and calls himself the "Holy Father", "Christs' Vicar on Earth", and other such pretentious titles. This person will be humbled.

[OLD REGGIE]

It's a "saving faith" that is important which incorporates repentence and works naturally. Chicken and egg question or am I missing something (everything)? Maybe I'll just join Old Reggie and start attending a Unitarian Church along with the snake handlers, yoga instructors, buddhist housewives, and left-wing activists.

Wow! I'm missing out on all this excitement?

My boring congregation is content with Scripture readings, Christian Hymns, and a sermon (admittedly sometimes a little strange), and fellowship.

Of course I have never polled my fellow congregants as to their deep dark beliefs and practices. Let God sort that out.

[betty boop]

Reason and faith are complementary. But reason cannot substitute for faith.... Reason also does not substitute for Spiritual discernment or divine revelations.

So very, very true....

Without faith, reason itself becomes unreasonable -- as you have pointed out before, my dearest sister in Christ!

Thank you ever so much for your wise and beautiful essay/post!

[Greg F]

It must be at the 10 a.m. service . . .

[betty boop]

...faith has an "unreasonable effectiveness" to it, and...reason can not be divorced from truth without becoming something other than reason.

Beautifully and truly said, dearest sister in Christ! Thank you so much for saying it!

[unspun]

An apostle is like a minister plenipotentiary, or what legal eagles call an agent, for whose acts the principle consents to be responsible -- as long as the agent acts within his brief.

And we are all agents. All are priests (and that is without any modifiers) in the Kingdom of Christ. And any leaders in earthly church fellowships are to help to build all of us up as the priests we are. No substitute for that, either.

So, in Spirit and in truth, the organizational chart of God and His royal priesthood of believers is as follows:

God
|
Each Believer

I don't think 1 Jo 2:19-27 is about all the truth but the truth of the incarnation, that Jesus is the Christ. Is is the denial of that about which John is writing. And besides I Cor 12 stands. Diversities of gifts, not all get all, each gets some.

And the Holy Spirit is like the wind, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus. He may blow one gift or revelation one way at one time, directly to one person or through another, and at another time, in another direction. It is all at God's discretion.

I wouldn't address Baalam's ass with reverence, nor anyone in the Church. All are to allow the measuring rod of the immutable Logos of God as his Magisterum. And the Rhema of God, aligned with the Logos, is to guide each and all, as the Holy Spirit decides and severally blesses.

[hosepipe]

[.. Angelic wisdom consists solely in this, that angels see and comprehend what they think. ..]

And yet some(Angels), it is said, rebelled against God.. Angels have seen God.. and some of them bought the lie deciding "good and evil" for yourself will make you like God.. Which was repeated to Eve and Adam by Satan which believed it himself(probably)..

Angels seem to have a different or no bodies like humans bodies since they can be invisible to men.. they are spirits.. It is possible that "what humans ARE" can be some of the angels that bought the lie(but repented) getting a second chance.. Meaning an (angelic)spirit injected into a human body for a test.. with evil and good angels influencing that human for "its" earthly life on this planet.. i.e. a second chance..

What a drama that would be.. No doubt there would "rules" for both angelic sides of the contest.. Each human testing platform(human life) would be like a chess board.. Being "born again" could be like "QUEENING" in chess..

If SOooo, I wonder if there is a LINE(somewhere) in a heavenly queue waiting for a human body to be concieved so another angelic being could assume the "second chance"(prodigal son- parable) in the/this earthly drama/soap opera/contest/maze of testing..

This scenario would/could solve Not only mankind's but the angels rebellion problem(since humans are really angels).. so that God could eventually get down to populating the Universe or some other creative task..

Anyway this would make a good novel...
"Truth, of course, must of necessity be stranger than fiction, for we have made fiction to suit ourselves."-G.K. Chesterton

"The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction HAS to make sense" - Tom Clancy

[Mad Dawg]

Well, that's a point of view. I don't think it's scriptural, IMHO. There is a clear distinction from the sermon on the mount through the Pentecost and after, with the ordination of deacons, the appointment of Matthias, the apostolic conference in Acts, that there are those with apostolic authority and those who do not have it but are members of the Church.

This is not an argument, simpliciter, for the RC church, just for SOME hierarchy of some kind being attested to in the NT.

[betty boop]

What a fascinating speculation, dear ‘pipe! Thank you so much for writing!

[unspun]

I never said there shouldn't be organization and organizers on to get the earthly responsibilities of the Chuch met. And there are leaders in that regard, but all are followers of Christ and Christ alone.

But relationship with God is not hierarchical -- not in the least.

BTW, look up the root of "apostle" in the NT and you will find "sent one." You probably already know that. When you see the list of "offices of the church," isn't it strange that it doesn't say "missionary?" Not strange at all, because it does: "sent ones."

[hosepipe]

[.. What a fascinating speculation, dear ‘pipe! Thank you so much for writing! ..]

Reasoning can come up with many reasons.. for most anything..
Faith trumps reasons formulaic operators.. as mechanical..

Childlike faith is not ashamed to be imaginative..
Where does ideas as toys end and ideas as dogmatic formulas begin?..

"Unless you become as one of these(child), you never see heaven"- Jesus..

[Mad Dawg]

I sure think the Popes who thought “Wow! I’m vicar of Christ, Let’s Party!” get bad humbled. The population density of popes in hell is high, if Dante is anything to go by. I think one of the Popes in the early 16th century (Alexander? I dunno) is reported to have said,”The papacy at last is ours. Let us at least enjoy it.”

ooops! (basketball buzzer noise) So tell me, Your Holitude, did you enjoy the whole thing with Luther and all?

However the ones who said,”Oh Lord, Somehow I seem to have ended up being your vicar. Keep me always in your will, do not let me go astray,” ...I’m less worried about their, uh, outcome.

[DaveMSmith]

Re: Faith and reason

In the opposite sense, understanding of the Word falsified by reasonings lead to destruction of faith.

Living faith is true faith -- if out heart is rooted in charity to the neighbor and performing useful endeavors, and we shun evils as sin, the Lord will open our spiritual eyes so we can see heaven.

Rules of Life:

1. Often to read and meditate on the Word of God.
2. To submit everthing to the will of Divine Providence.
3. To observe in everything a propriety of behaviour, and to keep the conscience clear.
4. To discharge with fidelity the functions of my employments, and to make myself in all things useful to society.

[Mad Dawg]

Funny, I was just thinking about that during yesterday's homily.

I think that we are really close here.

Sacraments - and each one of the Baptized is in some sense sacramental - are great helps, VERY great helps. But whatever helps, catalysts, assistances, reminders, pledges, .... it is not only God and community and we; it is also God and I, mano a mano - with my devout prayer that He wins the fight. What's a hip joint here or there if God triumphs?

[hosepipe]

[.. Rules of Life: ..]

First: What is life?... <<- the elephant in the room...

[Mad Dawg]

1. Often to read and meditate on the Word of God.
2. To submit everthing to the will of Divine Providence.
3. To observe in everything a propriety of behaviour, and to keep the conscience clear.
4. To discharge with fidelity the functions of my employments, and to make myself in all things useful to society.
   
   
   
5. Laugh a lot.

[unspun]

Yes, whether hips are noses are out of joint, Brother Dawg, the benefit is much greater.

[Mad Dawg]

I'm in for the kumbaya part.

RCs consider Faith a "work", and repentance a "work". ALL of them brought to you by God and made possible through His grace which is so extravagant that He even counts the works He does in you as though you had done them and gives you merit for them!

It's the jackass who thinks, "I moiself, by the might of my (in my case) left arm, have gotten for moiself the victory and the merit and all that." The Lord has THAT jackass in derision.

I would probably kiss Balaam's ass, (um, let me rephrase that) or any donkey that just was a donkey, because donkey's are pretty lovable, unless you want them to do something.

But self-inflicted asininity? You only kiss that guy when he wakes up and realizes the ass he's been and wants to stop.

[DaveMSmith]

First: What is life?... <<- the elephant in the room...

All life is from the Lord. We are vessels that receive life.