Thank God For the Magisterium

NCR ^ | June 10, 2007 | Mark Shea

[betty boop]

Faith is a bridge over troubled waters.... Reason is snorkling equipment.. (Jaws theme)..

It goes deeper than that, dear brother hosepipe: Reason would have no reason to trust itself, absent faith. In this case, faith in reason.

But what constitutes reason? Is it as man defines it? Or is it as God defines it, in giving it its root principles in the first place -- that is, logic and experience?

Just as there would be no reason at all to rail against and deny God absent the tacit admission that God "exists." Why would anybody want to spend so durned much time and energy fighting a fiction??? As some folks around here seemingly are wont to do, in their own imaginations at least??

Yet it also seems clear to me that in our own times we are "snorkeling in troubled waters." Surrounded in murk, vision is lacking.

[Mad Dawg]

YEah. On the flip side “master” often means “Teacher” and that’s how I thought of it in this context. We called the teachers “masters” at my horrible prep school.

[DaveMSmith]

This seems pretty clear:

Hence it is now that those who are in the spiritual affection of truth have an internal acknowledgment of it. As the angels are in that affection they utterly reject the dogma that the understanding should be kept in subjection to faith; for they say, What is it to believe a thing, and not to see whether it is true? If any one declares that still it must be believed, they reply, Do you think that you are God whom I ought to believe, or that I am mad to believe an assertion in which I do not see any truth? Cause me therefore to see it. So the dogmatic one retires. Angelic wisdom consists solely in this, that angels see and comprehend what they think.

Doctrine of Faith #4 (Swedenborg)

[unspun]

YEah. On the flip side “master” often means “Teacher” and that’s how I thought of it in this context. We called the teachers “masters” at my horrible prep school.

Such terms as the above, as with "father," "vicar," and "primate," are very, very odd, in a church which would recognize the total primacy of Jesus Christ (THE image of the Invisible God) as the other current thread asserts.

I don't choose to beat up anyone for his religious particulars (and am not a fan some of the Reformers doctrines that also draw outside the lines) but I do choose to accept the truth from God's perspective, no one "getting in His/my light," whether it pleases any mere man, or not.

[hosepipe]

The Observer problem is exactly snorkling in troubled waters..
Faith draws on the spirit which focuses the/an observation..

[saradippity]

I learned in my ninth grade,public school,Latin class that the word magistra was a female teacher. I believe a male teacher was magister. Miss Palmer never gave us any other definition. Had it been a private school,she might have mentioned head mistress and head master but she limited it to what we were familiar with;that was,teacher.

At the time,I was attending my Confirmation classes at the parochial school attached to my parish. We were learning that we were to go into the world and present Jesus to the world and defend the Faith.

We were taught that on the Feast of Ascension,Jesus Christ told the "Eleven",they were to go into the world,baptizing all nations and teaching them what He had commanded.

We were told that in the last chapter of John,Jesus had a talk with Peter charging him with tending and feeding the lambs and the sheep. The last verses tell Peter,he was to follow Christ and not worry about how long John was going to be alive,Peter was told again to follow Christ and so ends the final chapter of the Gospels.

It made perfect sense that from that time forward,the Apostles and their successors went about the world baptizing and teaching and that this body of bishops,led by the Pope was known as the "Magisterium". In addition to teaching,the Magisterium is charged with keeping the deposit of faith free from error until Christ comes again.

In a nutshell,Peter follows Christ,the Apostles follow Peter,the priests assist them in bringing Christ to the world and we follow them and in that manner,working together as the Body of Christ,in union with one another we are to bring as many as choose Him,home to the Father.

[Quix]

Perhaps both.

BTW, I don’t recall which post . . . But there’s some dear post of your—which triggered a lot of robust warm friendly laughter on my part at the college, I think today . . . and I was prayerfully pondering it on the way home . . .

My sense was . . . a persistent pretty strong sense . . .

that you seem to have most or all the components fairly well in hand . . .

but still can’t see the forest for the trees. And I’m at a loss as to how to help.

But there is something significant . . . I dare say important if not vital . . . that even wise you are missing in my humble poor words.

[Quix]

Like Luther’s doctrines of “the Bible alone” or “faith alone”?

= = =

Now, AF, to be exceedingly more fair and accurate . . .

I think if a computer were fairly and accurately programmed to assess inferences . . . and say layers out of inferences . . .

The inferences, extrapolations, assumptions re Mary

are MANY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE further out from Scripture than the inferences re BY FAITH ALONE.

FAITH ALONE is fairly directly inferred from many specific Scriptures making plain statements about the primacy of faith.

The Mary stuff is air-gel stacked upon air-gel stacked upon fog stacked upon wild assumption stacked upon VERY OBLIQUE AND DISTANT slight mention of something as related as the neghboring GALACTIC CLUSTER . . . maybe.

[Quix]

FORGOTTEN PING to various

Like Luther’s doctrines of “the Bible alone” or “faith alone”?

= = =

Now, AF, to be exceedingly more fair and accurate . . .

I think if a computer were fairly and accurately programmed to assess inferences . . . and say layers out of inferences . . .

The inferences, extrapolations, assumptions re Mary

are MANY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE further out from Scripture than the inferences re BY FAITH ALONE.

FAITH ALONE is fairly directly inferred from many specific Scriptures making plain statements about the primacy of faith.

The Mary stuff is air-gel stacked upon air-gel stacked upon fog stacked upon wild assumption stacked upon VERY OBLIQUE AND DISTANT slight mention of something as related as the neghboring GALACTIC CLUSTER . . . maybe.

[Quix]

What about the notion that historical and theological truths

= = =

WHICH ARE ASKEW FROM, WHICH CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE . . .

That principle is plainly evident in a number of Scriptures.

STRAWDOG

[Quix]

This is the post that speaks so strongly of missing the forest for the trees . . . or is it the trees for the forest.

Still chewing . . . no solution has come to mind, yet.

But you are missing some vital things in my poor words.

[Quix]

Agreed. Maybe that’s why I believe the bigger your “absoloute rules” book becomes the greater the opportunity for error.

= =

ABSOLUTELY TRUE! LOL.

[Quix]

Love the examples.

Thx.

[Quix]

Not if you view them as complementary. One requires both to express the human nature that God intended for each of us....

= =

STRONGLY AGREE.

[Quix]

Don’t you think the very word “Magisterium” has a root meaning that belies an untoward ring of exhaltation, about it?
[Origin: 1490–1500; < L magisterium, equiv. to magister master + -ium -ium]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magistery

= = =

Thanks, Bro/Sis? You have posted a fact VERY PREGNANT WITH SPIRITUAL IMPORT.

Thanks.

[Quix]

INDEED:

Matthew 23:8-12 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

8”But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Footnotes:

Matthew 23:10

[Quix]

1. Unlike other scriptures , none of the Apocrypha writers claim to be inspired.
2. Unlike the Old Testament , the Apocrypha are no where quoted in the New Testament.

3. The Apocrypha are tainted with errors in time and fact, exposing un-inspiration.

4. The Apocrypha contain fabulous statements which not only contradict the “canonical” scriptures but themselves.

5. The Apocrypha include doctrines at variance with the Bible.

6. The Apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by Jews, the custodians of Hebrew scriptures.

7. Not one of the Apocryphal books was written in Hebrew.

b’shem Yah’shua

= = =

EXCELLENT. THX

[Quix]

I went round and round with their Milwaukee leadership extensively over a mission team.

I’m surprised they even considered it in the first place.

= = =

Sorry, what’s the “it” refer to?

They certainly were super reluctant to involve an outsider—me.

But when I noted that they were about to lose at least 3 out of 5 couples on the field; that one had been suicidal and another was in danger of even abandoning Christianity . . . I got the Chairman’s attention.

I later had to warn him that if he persisted in his stances that God was likely to take him out of this life . . . he persisted . . . and 30 days or so after the warning, he died of a brain anyeurism.

Was an awesome year or so experience. Super humbling.

[Quix]

Yet it also seems clear to me that in our own times we are “snorkeling in troubled waters.” Surrounded in murk, vision is lacking.

= =

So sadly true.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you all so much for sharing your insights!

Do I believe that faith can contradict reason?

Absolutely!

My first reaction was that if one believes that faith cannot contradict reason, he will not experience miracles. Hebrews 11 includes many examples, and here are a few more:

And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? – Matt 14:29-31

Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. – Matt 17:19-20

And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. – Mark 11:21-25

Another example is predestination and free will. God speaks both prophesies and commandments in Scripture. Both are true because God spoke them. The Aristotlean Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) does not apply to God.

Reason and faith are complementary. But reason cannot substitute for faith.

Reason also does not substitute for Spiritual discernment or divine revelations.

For instance, reason didn’t help Nicodemus (John 3) to understand that we must be born again. Nor did it help all those disciples who walked away (John 6) when Christ told them He is the bread of life, that we must drink His blood and eat His flesh. Both Truths can only be Spiritually discerned.

Likewise, that Jesus Christ is Lord is a divine revelation. Teeth-gritting, covering one’s ears and shutting one’s eyes, stomping the ground and repeating over and again that Jesus Christ is Lord will not bring the Truth alive within anyone.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. – Matt 16:17

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. – I John 4:2-3