The Relationship of Baptism to Salvation

Original Writing by pjr12345 | 5/2006 | pjr12345

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**There goes the fabric of reality!***

Think so? In the original Greek writings there were no chapters, verses or sentence breaks. It was all run together.
Like this...
Act 19:4 ThensaidPaulJohnverilybaptizedwiththebaptismof repentancesayinguntothepeoplethattheyshouldbelieveonhim whichshouldcomeafterhimthatisonChristJesusWhentheyheard
thistheywerebaptizedinthenameoftheLordJesus.

Quite a difference, isn’t it.

Now again.
John baptized for repentance of sin, requiring a belief in Jesus.
When Jesus began to baptize people went to him. John recognized that his baptisms would decrease as Jesus’ increased.

At no time did John tell anyone to go get re baptized because Jesus’ baptism was better. At no time did Jesus demand those baptized by John get re-baptized by him.

By your doctrine all baptisms before the crucifiction were then made invalid.

At no time did Jesus ever require those baptized by his own disciples get re-baptized after the crucifiction.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Congratulations. You have made your first step toward Catholicism. (All sins are forgiven for an adult upon their re-baptism into the Catholic Church,) although the Catholic Church recognizes the baptism of several other faiths, also.***

Even the Baptist baptism of following Christ in baptism which is not officially (in baptist doctrine) for remission of sin.

No slam on this. I’m glad to hear it. I have this hangup about being re baptized over and over.

[pjr12345]

A bit simplistic, but we’ll go with it. Keep in mind that the declinations and conjugations provided clarity of meaning. Word order and punctuation is not as important in some languages as it is in English.

Also, running the English Translation together does not constitute reconstruction of the original text. The meaning of the original has been translated, structured, ordered, and punctuated according to the understanding of the translator. Your argument fails on this account as well.

[pjr12345]

Using your theory and words:

(1) John baptized for repentance, of the sin of requiring a belief in Jesus.

(2)When Jesus began to baptize, people went to him, John, and recognized that his baptisms would decrease as did Jesus’.

Increased...

(3) ...at no time did. John would tell anyone to go get rebaptized, because Jesus’ baptism was better. At no time did Jesus demand money. Those who were baptized by John were required to get re-baptized by him.

I'm willing to trust the eminent scholars who have translated the Scriptures. I'll check one group against another, and even do some word searching on my own. However, I figure that the fine Christian linguists assembled at various times are better judges than me.

[Liberal Bob]

Following your train of thought, then even if Jesus did baptize the Apostles (pre-resurrection), it wouldn’t have been sufficient to add them to the Church.
I see your logic. I can’t say I agree with your premise.

Most of CoC members I have discussed this with do accept the premise that Jesus never baptized with water. In fact you are the first one I have encountered that does not. Maybe I've been lucky. :)

I would hope that you at least see the deference in the two types of water baptism. Maybe if you believe that Christ was without sin you could ask yourself what did the baptism of Christ by John do?

However if you don't believe that my premise to be true then there is no point in discussing it. I see that the thread is ready to take on the "who's the real church" turn. I have never attended a church that says it is the only church and the only way to salvation, so I have no dog in that fight. Even though I find it funny that they point to the same bible as their authority and at the same time do things like endorsing same-sex marriages.

My He give you the wisdom to complete His plan.

[Iscool]

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

How do these verses fit into your theology???

[pjr12345]

Most of CoC members I have discussed this with do accept the premise that Jesus never baptized with water. In fact you are the first one I have encountered that does not. Maybe I've been lucky.

I don't know that I agree or disagree with your premise. I don't see where the Scriptures say explicitly that He did baptize with water. However, it doesn't say explicitly that He didn't. Whether He did or did not is a matter of speculation. Building a doctrine on a point of speculation is sure to lead to error.

[pjr12345]

How do these verses fit into your theology???

If they're in the Bible, they're in my theology.

[Liberal Bob]

I don't know that I agree or disagree with your premise. I don't see where the Scriptures say explicitly that He did baptize with water. However, it doesn't say explicitly that He didn't. Whether He did or did not is a matter of speculation. Building a doctrine on a point of speculation is sure to lead to error.

But we do know that Jesus was baptized with water. And you can ask yourself for what purpose this was done.

[bremenboy]

You should quote scripture correctly and completely if you're going to quote it. John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. "THE WORK OF GOD..." not of man.

is Baptism a work of God or man?

Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Col 2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

suppose I wanted to build a house and got a architect to design it> Then I got contractors to build it. Whose work would it be? Did I build my own house or not? If I have servants to serve me, and I told then go out and tell every about me. Whose work are they doing ? Their work or my work. Whose work are the disciples doing when they follow the commandments of the lord?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Whoses work are they doing when they don't follow the Commandments of the Lord?

[Iscool]

I was baptized, but it was out of submission and obedience to Jesus, not for my salvation. Do you believe that a soldier in a foxhole can't be saved, get shot, die, and have received salvation for his sins...without being dipped in water? I just don't get it. What other works do you do that makes you "good enough" to get into heaven?

Exactly...If you do a work for God, He owes you...God is become a debtor...

[Iscool]

believe a billion Roman Catholics are very wrong about the veneration of Mary - ascribing to her the status of Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix.

How many times must it be said that those two titles aren't dogmatic???

What kind of an answer is that??? It's in plenty of Catholic literature...It's taught all over the place by Catholics...I've seen the terms used numerous times here on FR...

Is saying it's not 'dogma' a way for you guys to CYA if things don't pan out??? You believe and teach it or you don't...Which is it???

[RachelFaith]

Nice chart... seems I am all over the place on it... which I consider a GOOD thing.

[bremenboy]

Also, as an earlier poster said, if baptisim were nessessary for salvation, it would be mentioned EVERY TIME that belief is. It's not, so do we have to guess? In Christ, Wiley

Every time baptism and salvation are mention together in the same verse .Baptism is always Before salvation

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Romans 6:4 “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” I Peter 3:21 “There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

so do we have to guess

[ulm1]

IF this is true, then every Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, etc ,over 80% of the people on Earth, are going to hell. I do not believe that a loving God would abandon 80% of his children.

[Pyro7480]

Is saying it's not 'dogma' a way for you guys to CYA if things don't pan out??? You believe and teach it or you don't...Which is it???

Some people pose it as a theological possibility, and belive it. Others oppose it. It's a debate.

[Iscool]

Some people pose it as a theological possibility, and belive it. Others oppose it. It's a debate.

Thanks for the answer...

[WileyPink]

is Baptism a work of God or man?

Man baptizes with water, God baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

You simply put too much emphasis on the symbolism of baptism. It symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Suppose I get married but don't have a wedding ring. Am I still married? The ring SYMBOLIZES the union of the two but the two are still married even without the ring.

Wasn't I in this discussion with you the other day? God Bless you brother...you are persistent!

I think however I will move on to those around me now who don't even know Christ. I will tell them of the necessity of the shedding of His blood for the remission of my sins. I will also tell them that the act of baptism will show their obedience to Him, but the water won't do a thing for their salvation any more than rubbing beads will. (No slam intended). The baptism that I will show them is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ, Wiley

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Also, running the English Translation together does not constitute reconstruction of the original text. The meaning of the original has been translated, structured, ordered, and punctuated according to the understanding of the translator. Your argument fails on this account as well.***

Some of the English theologians of the 1880’s put quotation marks around Paul’s speech and end the quote marks ...

Quotes in their origional...

“John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

[bremenboy]

The baptism that I will show them is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Out of Curiosity what does the Baptism that you show the lost look Like? Please describe