Vatican spars with Israel's Holocaust memorial over pope's World War II role

WHDH 7 News Boston ^ | April 12, 2007

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The pope did not "stand up" to Hitler because (1) He knew Hitler

Yes, and from the looks of it, they were pretty darn close.

[RobbyS]

From the looks of it, you are trying to find a a scapegoat for a Europe that hated and still hates the Jews.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

How dare you question Israel. The Amen corner at FR will be most displeased.

Yes I have noticed.

What you sarcastically call the "amen corner" is an amalgam of varied and individual points of view. Old Reggie, Uncle Chip, blue-duncan, Alex Murphy, Wmfights and myself often hold conflicting theological positions. We do not "amen" in unison when it comes to certain religious doctrines and historical scenarios. Even those concerning Israel.

So it's all the more interesting when six disparate Christians who have read the history books and newspaper accounts all agree with the Israelis that it would be a tragic insult to the six million lives who were snuffed out in the holocaust if Rome were to sanitize the record of Eugenio Pacelli and elevate "Hitler's Pope" to sainthood.

We're not the ones driving this debate. We're simply saying we agree with the article that began this thread.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Huh? Scapegoat? Why would I want to find a "scapegoat for Europe?"

You're the one criticizing the American war effort.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

First, as the claimed "Vicar" of Christ his first obligation is to Christ and His gospel. Second, what happened to "on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"? Did the Pope know more than Jesus did or does or did his faith in God's sovereignty only go as far as his courage?

This one deserves an "amen."

You asked last week where was Pacelli's concern for God in all this. We sure don't see much of it by his actions nor his inaction.

[blue-duncan]

“We do not “amen” in unison when it comes to certain religious doctrines and historical scenarios. Even those concerning Israel”

Darn right, and I am still praying for you guys to see the light before He comes and surprizes you.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Frankly, I concern myself with His return very little. I try to live each day as if it were the only one God had given me. Every morning I wake up, I'm grateful for another one.

And many days I forget this entirely, so I'm happy for this chance to remind myself of it once again.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." -- Colossians 2:6-9

"Dear God. Thank you for my life. I forgot how big you were." -- Joe Banks, "Joe Vs. the Volcano."

[wmfights]

RS:“When one’s first obligation is to one’s own, any measures that would have led to the actual destruction of the Church is not to be expected.”

BD:That has got to be the most incredible statement from any one here on the FR Religion forum.

Amen, it caught my attention as well. IOW, to heck with everyone as long as we are okay.

Didn't Origen, Tertullian and the Donatist's complain about this type of attitude among the elites of the early church during periods of persecution?

[wmfights]

How dare you question Israel. The Amen corner at FR will be most displeased.

Yes I have noticed.

Do you think a people almost wiped away from the face of the earth might have an interest in how we view those that may have assisted those that sought their destruction.

[wmfights]

Old Reggie, Uncle Chip, blue-duncan, Alex Murphy, Wmfights and myself often hold conflicting theological positions. We do not "amen" in unison when it comes to certain religious doctrines and historical scenarios. Even those concerning Israel.

Well said!

I think where we do stand united is in a belief that we should seek the truth and to try to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

So it's all the more interesting when six disparate Christians who have read the history books and newspaper accounts all agree with the Israelis that it would be a tragic insult to the six million lives who were snuffed out in the holocaust if Rome were to sanitize the record of Eugenio Pacelli and elevate "Hitler's Pope" to sainthood.

Wouldn't it be fair to say they have a very unique dog in this fight. I certainly understand their trepidation of embracing a historical figure as a "saint" who they aren't so sure was a "saint".

[reagandemocrat]

I’m still trying to get my head around your invoking JFK into this thread.

[Conservative til I die]

Six disparate Christians...

Disparate in everything except a well documented history of rabid anti-Catholicism.

Yes, the point you make is pretty clear.

Keep beating at the Vatican with those sticks, folks. You don't fool anyone.

[Uncle Chip]

Keep beating at the Vatican with those sticks, folks. You don't fool anyone.

Some sticks should have been used on Pius XII and that Vatican magisterium for securing that Concordat with Hitler in 1933, for the slaughter of the Serbs by the Catholic Ustashe in Croatia in the Vatican's backyard, for all those Nazi war criminals who escaped postwar justice down those Vatican Ratlines to South America, for exaggerating all that supposed assistance that they supposedly provided to all those being shipped away to the death camps, and for those in the Vatican who have been covering all this up for years.

[Alex Murphy]

Disparate in everything except a well documented history of rabid anti-Catholicism.

Who are these six that you're referring to?

[OLD REGGIE]

Disparate in everything except a well documented history of rabid anti-Catholicism.

Do say? In your "fixed in stone" mind any healthy skepticism concerning any beliefs of practices of the RCC is "rabid anti-Catholicism". Not true, but keep on drinking the

Yes, the point you make is pretty clear.

Keep beating at the Vatican with those sticks, folks. You don't fool anyone.

It might be worthwhile if you backed up your wild claims, but, keep on trucking.

You have made a claim concerning the "rapid anti-Catholicism" of no less than six people. An honorable person would be prepared to document these charges with examples from all six. I'll make it easy on you. Simply document your charge against me. That's easy enough isn't it?

[OLD REGGIE]

Some time ago I participated in the Neverending... thread. After much discussion we decided to use the term NC (Non-Roman Catholic) as a catch-all term since so many of different striped participated.

I will resurrect the term NC for the purpose of this reply.

I truly wonder if Conservative til I die is a NC basher/hater as evidenced by a 15 minute search of recent posts.

How dare you question Israel. The Amen corner at FR will be most displeased.

And yes, all Protestant belief systems are schismatic, and a great many blow the red lights right clear into heresy.

The Protestants are on the "we're impeccable" kick. Builds their faith up I guess when they poke at the Catholic faith.

The bigots wouldn't have it otherwise. Most threads about a Baptist minister sleeping with a 14-year old or carrying on 23-year affairs with their kids' babysitter are either completely ignored, or the response of "Let us not cast the first stone" or "Let's pray for him and his slight indiscretions."

Man, no one wants to read this Judaizer bunk.

A heretical cult. Though I hear they're starting to make the move towards actual Christianity that everyone else has only been practicing for 2000 years.

And whether one subscribes to the Judaizer heresy or not, I believe all Christians still recognize the Ten Commandments.

But in reading one of th Adventist's awful tracts, they do pose a great question.

Oh wait, this was a Protestant minister? Well, that means this will be a dead thread. Let's all face it, most religion-board Freepers don't care about molestation unless they can use it as a stick to beat Catholics with.

It's so pathetic that Protestants can't make their point without taking at least one potshot at the Catholic Church (re: the first paragraph of the article).

So true. When will the Protestants stop? It's been 500 years of lies and slander.

Good grief. Is this the part where the Protestants foam at the mouth as is par for the course.

More likely a hatred of NC's coupled with a dose of paranoia.

[wmfights]

FWIW, I enjoy the fierce back and forth on some of these threads. It has forced me to really study Scripture and analyze what I believe and why.