Posted on 03/22/2007 9:54:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
I agree with most of your post, just curious as to what you meant in the statement I quoted above. What do you mean when you say that Jes will be "brought into the kingdom"?
I'm speaking of unbelieving Jews. Until the repent and trust in Christ's atonement for their sins, they remain "outside the camp", or outside the kingdom of God. Once they are regrafted they become citizens of Christ's kingdom, which is made up of Jews and gentiles without distinction.
Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
Renovation
I know that some people believe that all Jews will eventually accept Christ. I was just wanting to know if that is what you believe. I think Scripture is clear that only those who obey the Gospel will be saved, whether they are Jew or Gentile.
Since many Jews have died without believing on Christ, this view of "all Israel" cannot be true. I take the phrase to mean all those from among the Jewish people whom God has elected to salvation.
"And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
While I don't agree with the Calivinistic view of predestination, I do agree that only those who obey the Gospel of Christ will be saved.
So, in other words, you're still not sure until the "renovated" building matches Ezekiel 40-48, correct?
If a "spiritualizer" did this much speculating about Bible things you guys would be calling us all sorts of names.
All you have to do is believe the Bible's view on predestination and you'll be OK.
"'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:15,16)
"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Rom. 9:21-24)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved." (Eph. 1:3-6)
I do believe in Scriptural predestination. That is why I can't believe in Calvinistic predestination.
What do you perceive is the difference?
Those who accept Christ and come in obedience to Him are saved. It is that group that God predestined to be saved, not individuals. If it were individuals, then we have no choice in the matter, and that goes directly against Scripture.
Where would you say that collective aspect of election -- that God elect a group to salvation but not the individuals that make up the group -- is taught, esp. in the NT?
While the Bible uses a collective noun to describe all the elect, it also is plain that it is individuals that are elect, not merely the collective.
"The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, ... The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen." (2 John 1:1,13)
Christians are not Borg. God knows each one of us by name, and He calls us as individuals into His salvation.
"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." (John 10:3)
"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen (elect)." (Matt. 20:16)
If it were individuals, then we have no choice in the matter, and that goes directly against Scripture.
And where does it say in the Bible that an unregenerate (spiritually dead) man has a choice in the matter? A person spiritually dead in their trespasses and sin has not more ability to make themself alive than Lazarus had to walk out of the tomb on his own power.
I think your presuppositions about what man is able to do with respect to his salvation is flawed.
What I'm sure of is a renewal of everything. A Lamb will lie down with a Lion.
Our earthly pictures don't match.
There is no biblical requirement for the temple that houses the man of sin -- built by men as it will be -- to match the temple of the millennium.
There's nothing spiritualized in that. It simply isn't a requirement of the scripture.
He desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), but only those who come in obedience to Christ will be saved (Hebrews 5:9). One does not "make themself alive" by obeying God. They are accepting the gift of salvation on God's terms. It is God, through Christ, that imparts salvation upon those who accept Him.
Partial renewal. For even in the chiliast millennium there is still sin and death and rebellion against Christ's rule.
The vision of the lion and the lamb from Isaiah still must be spiritually discerned.
Our earthly pictures don't match.
Are you saying that we really can't be "literalists" when it comes to the prophecies about the millennium? They are all exposed to us using earthly pictures. Are you saying we need to read them with spiritual eyes?
to match the temple of the millennium
So how many more temples are there? I think I lost count. Let me see now, we have two temples, two more returns by Jesus, at least three judgments, two resurrections, maybe three. No wonder folks need Scofield's Notes to help them keep things straight.
So what is it that makes them accept Him? Is it something intrinsic or extrinsic? What is it that motivates one person to accept and another to reject?
Honestly, I don't know the exact answer to that question. I do know that faith comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). I know that we have a choice as to who we will serve (Joshua 24:15). I also know that men can resist God (Acts 7:51, Romans 13:2, 2 Timothy 3:8). In order for there to be harmony in Scripture, man must be able to accept or reject Christ.
What are the possibilities? Either our response to the call of the gospel is prompted from within or from without. Either we are the agent of our "decision" to believe on Jesus, or something outside of us must act in order tfor us to respond in faith.
I can understand why it is difficult to answer the question. It's a no win situation for those who resist the doctrines of election and predestination as taught in the Bible.
I know that we have a choice as to who we will serve (Joshua 24:15).
Is this passage in Joshua really speaking of our choice in salvation? No really. The context makes it clear that these people, Israel, already belonged to God. All they were choosing to do was reject His place as sovereign over the nation and follow after other gods. Look at teh opening phrase, "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord ...". They already had a covenant with God. Joshua was provoking them to be faithful to that covenant, just as he and his family were. Then look at their response, "So the people answered and said: 'Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did ... '" They did what their hearts were already inclined to do. They were not some sort of cosmic fence-sitters weighing which deity to follow.
I'm afraid this passage does not support the free will theory, although many use it that way.
The other verses have similar meaning, since they were directed at people who were already in covenant relationship with God.
In order for there to be harmony in Scripture, man must be able to accept or reject Christ.
Man rejected God at the Fall. His heart was darkened, and he became spiritually dead. The only way he can receive new life is not by willing it in himself, but by a change of heart brought about by the Holy Spirit working the gospel in him. God loves His won. Those He calls by name. Jesus Christ died for the sin of His people (Matt. 1:21). He has set His electing love on them alone. They are His sheep. He knew them by His electing love before the foundation of the world.
Man’s heart is so darkened by sin that if Christ did not choose some to be His own there would be no one in heaven. Folks don’t want to believe that because they don’t really believe man is as bad as the Scripture makes him out to be. They think that our will is immune from the taint of Adam’s sin, as we are free morally to choose Jesus. The Scripture paints an entirely different picture.
“As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.’” (Rom. 3:10-12)
That's kinda like how I'd be rest assured with "expansion" theology. lol
It's kinda hard knowing for sure from the outside looking in. You need to experience it firsthand, if you have what it takes.
Not at all. If it smells like a skunk and looks like a skunk it must be a skunk. Which is why on the outside looking in its much more pleasant.
You need to experience it firsthand, if you have what it takes.
Faith is a gift. I shouldn't have to "have what it takes." Tough guy Christianity. lol. That's all I need. lol.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.