The Doctrine of Purgatory

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm ^ | Unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J

[Vicomte13]

Two things stand out.

One is obvious: they no longer have their physical affliction.

The second is that most folks who are healed (not all) become quite spiritual thereafter.
They think they've been touched by God, and they believe and become more faithful.
Even folks who go on pilgrimage there who are NOT healed generally report a renewed faith (not everybody).

There have been studies done on this. It is very interesting. The place seems to really refresh and renew people's faith, whether they're healed or not.

[Quix]

YOu are quite welcome and I greatly appreciate your response.

I have the biase/perspective/construction on reality

that all Believers ought to be at least somewhat charitable about things which Scripture seems ambiguous about.

God was/is well able to be super precise. Witness the AUTHENTIC Bible Codes. Every letter had to be in a precise position.

But on some things--He clearly left ambiguity. And, it may be some sort of test about our unity of spirit with all who call Jesus Lord and Savior. Unity of thought and mind/perspective/bias is probably not very realistic given human individualities--even within supposed homogeneous groups of believers and even subgroups. h

But we can have unity of spirit toward God's superordinate priorities. And that I seek.

Blessings of God Almighty to you and yours.

[Vicomte13]

"And now your defense of calling the Catholic Church a 'sect' is...."

Sect is the neutral noun for different denominations.
Cult is pejorative (in English).
Sect isn't, or needn't be anyway.
I was placing all forms of Christianity on the same table for the discussion I was having: Lutherans, Baptists, Catholics, the Orthodox - all Christian sects.

That was an explanation, not a defense.
I am not on trial here.

[Vicomte13]

Beer.
Good.
More talk about beer is needed.
On this, German Lutherans and Pope Benedict himself have never disagreed.

[Vicomte13]

"the process isn't similar to that required to make Kopi Luak coffee"

I hit the link.
AAAAAAAAAAAGH!
This sounds like the sort of thing that was first drunk on a dare, and then was sold to tourists at high prices as a joke.

[reagandemocrat]

>>First, I think that if you're going to cite someone, you ought to ping him/her<<<

My apologies.

("first Girl Scout" was mine)<<

Regardless how some Roman Catholics inartfully venerate Mary, do YOU really think calling her "the First Girl Scout" is being respectful?

[Alex Murphy]

This sounds like the sort of thing that was first drunk on a dare, and then was sold to tourists at high prices as a joke.

You have to wonder how it was ever thought up in the first place. Did they try a bunch of other animals before they found one that made the beans taste good? Or did some half-drunk Amrican hippie go wandering through the Amazon, step in something squishy, and remarked "Hey! I wonder if that would taste good boiled in water?"

[Alex Murphy]

Regardless how some Roman Catholics inartfully venerate Mary, do YOU really think calling her "the First Girl Scout" is being respectful?

"Inartfully venerate" [snicker chortle]? What, do you have a problem with the Girl Scouts now?

[pjr12345]

Thanks for the help... maybe I ought to link to a page that lists the 66 books that comprise the Bible.

[pjr12345]

I don't think calling her 'Mary of the Perpetual Thin Mints' is very respectful.

It's a catholic thing, they even have a high school named for her.

[Vicomte13]

"*Look, I have no idea who you are. All I know is that on this thread you have attacked the Catholic Church publicly."

I have not.

"You have said the reality is Purgatory and Hell are the same place."

I have said that "Gehenna", the word Jesus used in the Gospels over and over, is Jewish Hell/Purgatory in one. Which it is. I have said that Jesus was a Jew talking to Jews, which he was. I have said that when Jesus wanted to correct a Jewish misconception, he did so. I have said that Jewish just used Gehenna straight, when speaking of the destiny of those who sin. Every Jew hearing that understood it precisely, and he didn't understand it as Protestants or Catholics understand "Hell". He understood it as Protestants and Catholics understand "Hell" AND as Catholics understand "Purgatory". I kept restating the definition of the Jewish word, because that is what Jesus SAID and clearly what he MEANT, given the audience and his use.

"You have described the Catholic Church established by Jesus as a sect..."

I described all Christian religions as "sects", and would have described branches of Judaism as sects as well, had there been a discussion of them. Sect is a neutral word referring to organizational divisions. It is not perforce pejorative, and I didn't use it pejoratively. You understood it pejoratively. And you understand "Gehenna" to mean "Hell", as opposed to "Hell + Purgatory". This is not due to any flaw in use of language on my part or Jesus' either. We meant what we meant, and used words that mean what we meant. If you interpreted those words to mean something else, well, that happens. Language is imprecise.

"So, given that reality, why wouldn't I think you believed what you wrote when you wrote..."And because you do not know, it COULD indeed be demons, and therefore you must be properly cautious."

Why do you care so much? What I have seen on thread and in sidebar is a relentless effort to assert authority which you do not possess. I have chosen to neither obey you nor to insult you, but to press on saying what I think needs saying.

"*Now, I am done with this thread because I am too anchored in reality to waste time trying to guess what you mean when you post your own words."

Enjoy your evening. Sorry you feel you have wasted your time.

[Vicomte13]

My guess is that poor folks went out and found the beans lying on the ground. They were allowed to brew up the beans, because they were waste beans. They did so, and it tasted good.
The thought makes you want to gag a maggot, but it's entirely possible that the, ahem, "predigested" coffee beans are essentially "naturally roasted"...by the DIGESTIVE JUICES in the BOWELS of a RAT before passing out IT'S ANUS...(but let's not go there).
Ahem.
So, it might actually taste good.
And once somebody drank coffee with the poor folks, they discovered it taste good.

Puzzle on this one: who do you suppose was the first person to decide that cow's milk would be good to drink, and how did that come about? (The visual is, well, amusing and unpleasant at the same time.)
But why don't we dring dog's milk or cat's milk?

[Vicomte13]

"Blessings of God Almighty to you and yours."

And also with you.

Another excellent post.
Thank you.

Pax vobiscum.

[armydoc]

Because that isn't the case. There is a thin transparent layer of wax that covers the skin, but what is seen is skin. And that thin layer of wax would in no way stop or even slow the deterioration of her body.

From Wikipedia:

In 1925, the church exhumed the body for a third time. They took relics, which were sent to Rome. A precise imprint of the face was molded so that the firm of Pierre Imans in Paris could make a light wax mask based on the imprints and on some genuine photos. This was common practice for relics in France, as it was feared that although the body was mummified, the blackish tinge to the face and the sunken eyes and nose would make an unpleasant impression on the public. Imprints of the hands were also taken for the presentation of the body. The remains were then placed in a gold and glass reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the motherhouse in Nevers. The site is visited by many pilgrims and the body of Saint Bernadette to this day remains incorruptible despite being nearly one hundred and fifty years old.

If the wax mask was thin and transparent, then her "blackish tinge and sunken eyes and nose" would still be apparent. No, this is an opaque mask. We don't know what she looks like underneath. Why else would they cover the skin with wax?

[Alex Murphy]

But why don't we dring dog's milk or cat's milk?

Self-preservation, IMO. Have you ever tried to milk a cat?

[pjr12345]

This is the unembalmed body of St. Bernadette Soubirous, she died in 1879, her body was exhumed thirty years later... please explain how any of this has occurred.

Well, first you get a couple of shovels, you dig a six foot deep hole around the grave...

Incidentally, what's with displaying corpses?

[reagandemocrat]

So a Catholic Girl Scout troop wants to venerate Mary in a special way, what of it to you?

Best just leave the Mother of Jesus alone than to ridicule the manner in which others (in this case the Girl Scouts) pay their respects.

[pjr12345]

So, to you, she is just another person in the Bible?

Well... Yeah!

People mentioned in Scripture are few and far between. That seems a pretty hefty blessing in and of itself!

[Vicomte13]

"Have you ever tried to milk a cat?"

If I have, I ain't tellin'.

[reagandemocrat]

>>It's a catholic thing, they even have a high school named for her<<

(Sigh)

Peace be with you.

Goodbye.

RD