Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
We don't do the work in Purgatory. God does. He burns off the dross so nothing impure will enter heaven.
If we go that route then I'm even more suspect of the idea of a non-instantaneous purgatory...
heck the theif on Christ' right was with him that day in paradise...
Would you mind diagramming that sentence?
Whether purgatory is instantaneous, or is experienced in time as we here on Earth understand time, or is experienced in a manner completely different from "time" is ... not a matter of doctrine. And the "number of days" indulgence, formerly used but now replaced, referenced a "number of days" of public, Earthly pennance. It did NOT reference "time" (again, it is not taught definitively whether souls in Purgatory experience "time" in a way we would understand it) in Purgatory, although many misunderstood it that way.
"but concerning Heaven, "there shall not enter into it anything defiled..." (Rev 21:27)."
So, evidently Enoch was not defiled. Or Elijah.
Both were taken up bodily (according to the Bible).
Did they not sin?
Did they not even have the stain of original sin on them?
Or did they, and God took them up in spite of their defilement?
Or did they, and God cleansed them of their sin before taking them up (two examples of the wiping clean of human sins before the sacrifice of Jesus)?
I don't know the answers.
I suspect nobody does.
What I suspect, in fact, is that our excessive certitude about these things which are, in fact, something of a contradictory mess, is itself an error.
What did JESUS say?
He said that the two great commandments were the Shema, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said a lot of things to DO, how TREAT each other, for instance. And he promised eternal life for that.
Trying to rectify all of the confusing parts of the Bible, which are in some cases quite contradictory, is in the end I think a fool's errand...especially given the lack of emphasis Jesus placed on the Bible. He reduced the Jewish Bible to two commandments, struck out all of the customs, and required that people DO things for each other. Then he didn't leave anything written, but he DID leave certain acts: Baptism, the Eucharist, Anointing the Sick, and the blessing of Marriage (by performing his first public miracle at one, after being nagged into it by his Jewish mama, and by his nullification of the Scriptural law of divorce and substitution of a prohibition of it), and we had better do these things scrupulously.
There are 613 mitvot in the Torah, but Jesus nullifies most of them, reducing them to a handful. Given that he was God incarnate, we're best off if we don't fight too much over writings he didn't leave, but that we do do the tasks he left behind to be done. I honestly cannot see any other interpretation of the Scripture that is reasonable.
1 sin != 1 penance
The whole notion is anti-biblical nonsense; folks die and go to heaven or hell until the final judgement when all are judged.
That, of course, is what the article addresses. While you may well reject the doctrine, to reject it as "anti-biblical" is insupportable.
You think Hell and Purgatory are the same place. So?
Why don't you cite an Ecumenical Council or something from The Sources of Catholic Dogma or Catechism of the Catholic Church you oppose and then maybe we can have something solid to kick around.
Your scenario was hog wash 70 years ago when I was a kid and it still is today. The only people I knew who used that rationale were fallen away Catholics. Ar you fallen away?
It isn't biblcial. There's no mention of such a place, there's no mention of 'working off sins', and after the resurection there is no mention of any place that could even be confused with purgatory.
"Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Actually I think a list of councils which mention a place called purgatory (and what they said about it) would go great lengths toward illuminating this discussion...
There is mention of being purified 'as by fire', and there is the inescapable business of the Maccabbees praying for the dead, and there's that bit about sins being forgiven "in this world or in the next".
If you are made righteous in Christ, then what purpose is served in your being punished for your sins. Did not Christ pay the penalty for those sins? Does God demand more judgment than that laid upon his Son at Calvary? Wasn't that sufficient?
(Assuming revelations don't lie; folks who ain't yet in heaven and are not in the sea, death, or hell are pretty well screwed in as much as no chance for their redemption in judgement is mention...)
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Again, disagree if you like ... but calling it "anti-biblical" is insupportable, in the face of support in the Old Testament, the Gospels, and the Epistles.
*U R Catholic?
And if your are purified by Christ on what basis can one possibly presume to affect the duration or difficulty of a process which is in CHRIST' hands?
XXII. Of Purgatory.
The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
quite a mouth full.
too bad that scripture is rife with mentions of statues, images, inovations, sacraments, incense, and the church being able to pardon folks...
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