Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi
Unfortunately, your idea that all churches are denominational is false. The church (assembly) I attend is Bible-based, and we don't have a web site (but we're working on it).
How difficult is it to understand that the Church established by Christ is spiritual ("My kingdom is not of this world," the Lord explained to Pilate.)? That It consists of those who faithfully obey the Gospel, and are added by the Holy Spirit?
Our relationship with God is one-to-one. No organization of man need be involved.
All references in the NT to priests in some ordained group are of those who were priests under the Judaic system, of those who are priests to foreign gods (like Zeus).
Other than that, the word "priest" is used to describe every Christian.
Yes, but in a book where names and titles are so very important, yes even life and death, it's funny that Mary is never given such lofty titles. I believe the bible calls her Mary. It also calls her "the virgin" and "the mother of my Lord". That's about it.
Lots of them!
I have the PC Study Bible from Biblesoft (www.biblesoft.com). I highly recommend it!
Is Mary called the mother of Jesus in the Bible?
(Yes.)
Does the Bible call Jesus God?
(Yes.)
Is "Jesus" a name of God, a name by which we are to call upon God?
(Yes.)
Then the Bible, by saying that Mary is the mother of Jesus, says that Mary is the mother of [NAME OF GOD][JESUS=][GOD].
Or do you think Jesus isn't God?
That's the only way to get Mary to not be Mother of God, per the Bible text itself, where she IS the Mother of Jesus.
And who is healing all of those people at that Marian shrine at Lourdes?
Is a shrine to Mary an abomination?
Then is the devil healing the sick and dispensing miracles of healing in order to lead sinners astray?
Jesus was accused of that when he healed the sick.
He asked if Satan could cast out Satan.
So, is Satan casting out Satan at Lourdes?
The healings are real and documented.
Who's doing it?
The Bible can't tell you. It was written before Mary appeared at Lourdes and the healing spring began to flow?
Is God, after all, doing all these healings, but at a Shrine to Mary, which you would say is an abomination?
IS IT an abomination?
Is Satan healing people at Lourdes?
Or do you need to rethink your view of Mary?
In the first chapter of Luke, Elizabeth says: "Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me".
And the babe in her womb leapt for joy.
Elizabeth understood by the Holy Spirit when she exclaimed "Blessed are you among women."
I understand that all from Sacred Scripture.
Starting off with a dark ale is a good idea. The whole process is much less temperature sensitive than with pale ales or pilsners. I keep the fermenter in a cool closet ... it has a slightly sweet smell, which is really just the natural response to the CO2. Bottling is kind of messy, clean up thoroughly after, or your kitchen will smell like beer. If you use a self-contained kit based on malt extract, you won't create much smell at the start, either.
Further discussion should probably go off thread.
"By your philosophy, God has to be a liar. Scripture cannot be in conflict with itself any other way."
No, by YOUR teaching.
Jesus said that Leviticus and Deuteronomy were wrong about divorce and food rules.
Scripture conflicts with Scripture right there, in the mouth of Jesus.
Repeating over and over that Scripture "can't" conflict is not very convincing in response to two examples where it clearly DOES conflict.
What resolution, then?
Obvious: Jesus was God. So he has the highest authority.
Interpret everything else in Scripture through Jesus.
Are you an ordained member of the clergy?
Of course you could think that...until you realize that the Onion has more truth to it.
Who heals the sick at the Marian Shrine at Lourdes?
Now that they've "fast-tracked" Theresa of Calcutta toward "sainthood" what miracle will we witness next? Perhaps it will be in celebration of the new information age. A "magical" screensaver will appear on some pre-teen Indian girl's laptop giving her new enlightenment!!! I can hardly wait.
Boys! Break out the Orville Reddenbacker and let's all pay homage to Our Lady, Mother of Kernels.
The horrible injustice perpetrated by the RCC on the character of that faithful woman who birthed our Lord carries its price!
Well said, sir.
What is the name of your church. The specific name of it.
Do you have a building?
Or do you just meet in houses?
Are you affiliated with ANY other church organization, like the Southern Baptist convention.
What you have presented is an image of a "church" consisting of neighbors. The name is what you've given it. You have a building with a sign out front, perhaps? Does it say "Baptist" Church? Does it say "Pentecostal"?
Or does it just say "Church of Christ"?
Our relationship with God is NOT just one on one. Jesus promised to send his Holy Spirit wherever two or more of you are gathered in his name. There is a one-on-one relationship, but there is also a communitarian relationship. Jesus says to take disputes to the church before taking them to the law. And the church is "up there" in the text, above you trying to work it out, and you with a couple of friends working it out.
So, just to be clear, is your church, your congregation, completely unaffiliated with ANY larger organization.
What does the sign on the building say?
The list seems to grow each day!
Which translation of the Bible do you use?
Why? Your discourse on beer making is far more informative and valuable than the "stuff" in most of the posts on the subject matter of the thread. ;-)
Johannes Paulus Magnus
Hell is a state of eternal damnation.....
2. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.
Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged "by what they [have done]" (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will "weep and gnash their teeth" (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a "pool of fire" those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a "second death" (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell'" (n. 1033).
"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state.
We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
4. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying "yes" or "no", which marks the human creature's freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God's love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a "yes" to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry "Abba, Father!" (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: "Father, accept this offering from your whole family ... save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen".
*[Note: The original Italian says, "(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates..." This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially "a place," rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in "some place," in which they will receive the punishment of fire.] return to text
Purgatory Is Necessary Purification
Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".
1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.
For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).
To share in divine life we must be totally purified
2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.
According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)
The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).
3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).
Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).
Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence
4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).
Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).
5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).
Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
*Nothing in there about Hell and Purgatory as the same place. But, he was just the Pope. What did he know? He had to struggle by with only Doctorates in Theology and Philosophy...
More tortured interpretation to justify and/or rationalize false doctrine built across the centuries by an abusive institution of man!
Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
rev 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
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