The Doctrine of Purgatory

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm ^ | Unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J

[HarleyD]

It's as if one's conduct, whether good or wicked, doesn't matter, as long as you accept Jesus as your Saviour. This view is contrary to the Gospel itself.

Romans 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

[xzins]

Do you think "venerating with heavy breathing" is worse than the old "sideways glance veneration?"

[blue-duncan]

"neither in the world to come."

"There are the sins that are forgiven here (via the sacrament of penance normatively or by perfect contrition) and those that are remitted after death (in Purgatory)."

Can't be. In your world the world is now and purgatory is now, not a "world to come".

[1000 silverlings]

to buy their dead relatives out of some phantasmic fantasyland Masses for the dead. I guess it relieves the guilt of the living

[murphE]

If one truly believes in Jesus Christ

Now that's a rather ambiguous phrase.

[al_c]

its final acceptance by the Protestant churches would mean a reversal of four hundred years of divergence

And pride would never let that happen.

[GCC Catholic]

Yes, indulgences can be obtained. That said, a vast majority are gained through prayers or simple acts of penance which cost absolutely nothing. The poorest of the poor can obtain indulgences. An extensive (but perhaps not exhaustive) list of these can be found here: http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/index.html.

In that list, one is conspicuously missing: The indulgence granted for the giving of alms. This was the one that was twisted into the "buying of indulgences" by Tetzel, and that was so scandalous to so many that it was finally revoked through the Authority of the Keys granted to the Pope.

You can say many things now, but you can no longer claim that you have not been informed of this. If you don't like the doctrine, I can deal with that, but please do not continue to misconstrue what Catholics believe concerning them.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Can a person still buy an Indulgence?

[GCC Catholic]

Can't be. In your world the world is now and purgatory is now, not a "world to come".

Why can it not be? Yes, some suffer greatly on earth, and it is commonly said that they suffer their Purgatory here, but how does that preclude it after death?

[ArrogantBustard]

But throughout Trent and up to this very day, the sale of Indulgences is still alive and kicking through the RC coffers.

Your link says nothing of the "Sale" of indulgences.

Whether indulgences are or are not real, and whether or not the Catholic Church teaches a correct doctrine of indulgences, your link, in fact, supports only the idea that, whatever indulgences may be THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE.

You have seriously misrepresented the content of the article at your link. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

[murphE]

please do not continue to misconstrue what Catholics believe concerning them.

Hope springs eternal.

[GCC Catholic]

No. Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money, but the indulgence for almsgiving (the "bought" indulgence) was eliminated sometime either around the time of or at Trent.

[ArrogantBustard]

Can a person still buy an Indulgence?

No. Never could, either. Almsgiving was once considered an indulgenced act ... but misconstrual and abuse led to scandal, so that was revoked.

If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.

[blue-duncan]

It isn't a "world to come". Your definition of purgatory is a place that exists parallel in time to this world. The "world to come" has always been defined as the new heaven and new earth where Christ reigns as Lord. At the last judgment there will not be any chance for repentance or forgiveness.

[xzins]

Sorry, but this verse is talking about:

1. This world.

2. The world to come.

Anyone in either of those worlds who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

It is speaking either of the Old Covenant (this world) and the New Covenant (the world to come) or of the Present World (this world) and the Millennial Kingdom of God (world to come.)

Since the passage is already speaking of the Kingdom of God, this is the clear interpretation of scripture.

You better hope that the "world to come" is not DEATH.

Jesus promised ETERNAL LIFE.

[P-Marlowe]

Purgatory is a denial of the doctrine of atonment. If men must be punished for their own sins despite having faith in Christ, depite being covered by the blood of Christ, then Jesus did not atone for their sins on the cross. The idea of Purgatory renders the atonement of no effect. Purgatory is not merely an error, it is another gospel.!

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8 KJV)

[GCC Catholic]

It isn't a "world to come". Your definition of purgatory is a place that exists parallel in time to this world. The "world to come" has always been defined as the new heaven and new earth where Christ reigns as Lord. At the last judgment there will not be any chance for repentance or forgiveness.

I believe at least part of this is correct: Purgatory will not outlast the last judgment, and certainly, after the judgment, there is no chance for repentance. We know this from the book of Revelation (20:11-15):

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What is it that we see here? We see the dead, judged on their works. We see the death and 'hell' (this is KJV, but many modern translations translate the Greek "sheol" as "the grave" or "Hades" not the hell of the damned, which would be Gehenna) finally destroyed, because they have been emptied and thrown into the lake of fire, that is, Gehenna. Purgatory (a Latin word for the Greek "Sheol").

This is rather consistent with 1 Cor. 3:11-15, which is mentioned in the article:

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As well as with Mt. 18:32-34:

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

I would love to chat further, but my homework doesn't do itself, so I won't be back on the thread until later today.

[xzins]

While I agree that purgatory represents "The Gospel of the Inconsequential Atonement," I also think it's the result of really lousy scriptural knowledge and the subsequent misinterpretation.

Note the Matthew 12 comment above and the reliance on Maccabbees.

Despite weird teachings like Kolob and Purgatory, those who truly trust in the Jesus of scripture when they read the real Word, those folks are saved.

[GCC Catholic]

This only holds true if Imputed Righteousness is true.

The Catholic Church has always held that Righteousness is infused, that is, it makes the soul completely clean. The "snow-covered dunghill" analogy is a clever one, I'll admit, but concerning Heaven, "there shall not enter into it anything defiled..." (Rev 21:27). Being a covered dunghill is not good enough, one must rather be purified completely through the Grace of Christ.

NOW I'm leaving to go do my homework.

A good afternoon to all!

[kawaii]

Frankly the notion that we can every save up enough 'good deeds' to make up for sin 1:1 is insane.