Posted on 12/19/2006 9:32:45 AM PST by xzins
There's no contradiction. They are baptizing, fully wetting, making fully wet, immersing, their hands. It's not translated as "baptize" here because people would confuse it with the biblically commanded religious practice of baptism.
B.W. Johnson's commentary on this passage says:
In the Greek, not the word rendered "wash" elsewhere in the passage, but baptize. Abbott renders it "plunge" and says: "Apparently, in the ritual of the Pharisees, washing by pouring on water sufficed for those who remained at home, but immersion of the hands in water was required of those who had gone abroad."
This was no ritual sprinkling no matter what.
Very, very weak, and stretched to the breaking point.
The Lord had a single emersion.
RDDB, This is clearly a 'strawman' with regard to UC's #30.
Do you believe that such a dishonest form of debate has a place on the religion forum?
And which districts in first century Jerusalem had such faucets?
Read it again.
Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash(baptizo), they eat not.
Read post 30 again. You deflected his meaning to create your argument. That is called a strawman.
OK, you guys. How many angels really CAN dance on the head of a pin anyway? The Holy Spirit is going to get in you one way or another.
I kind of like the idea of immersion with it's connotation of drowning the "old man" and birth of the "new man", but is anyone here really willing to get up on their hind legs and say that if the baptism was by pouring or sprinkling it was not a valid baptism? I didn't think so.
Carry on. :)
****This was no ritual sprinkling no matter what.***
So, they "plunged" their tables in water before eating?
Where in the NT does it say that anyone anywhere anytime was ever BAPTIZED "with a small bowl of water or blood, hyssop tied to a stick with a scarlet thread and sprinkled"????
I guess I have to let you guys know how we at the ONLY REAL church on the only real way properly baptize only really true believers.
First we go out in the ocean and inflate a small derigible that floats up to about 500 ft ASL, then we anchor the derigible to the Zodiac boat with a bungee cord extending to the new soon-to-be believer. We then take him down 2 atmospheres by SCUBA and hook the bungee cord to him by a harness and strip him naked.
We then read the appropriate verses and baptize him under water. As he inhales his last breath fro the SCUBA tank, his sins are jerked out of him as the C-130 flying overhead snatches the derigible and jerks him out of the water, sending up to the sanctuary in the Holy C-130 Flying Tabernacle.
While the newly baptized convert has the sins washed off of him, he now is truly reborn provided we witness him spasming on the deck of the aircraft and speaks in tongues.
We know this is the only true way of baptism because true convert speak so many bizzare things after having experienced this procedure and God has called them all home immediately thereafter. We think they must truly see the angels on the way up to their rebirth.
We are now working on the new, improved baptismal chamber which is a 60 ft tall tank we will fill with sheep's blood and are still working the math to have the Space Shuttle provide our new ascent.
/wild, rambling imagination off
(KJVR) And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.
The phrase "of tables" is controversial. It's not in the Majority Text, but it does appear in the Western and Syrian texts. From the commentary "Roberts Word Pictures":
Some scribes felt a difficulty about the use of baptisōntai here. The Western and Syrian classes of manuscripts add “and couches” (kai klinōn) at the end of the sentence. Swete considers the immersions of beds (baptismous klinōn) “an incongruous combination.” But Gould says: “Edersheim shows that the Jewish ordinance required immersions, baptismous, of these vessels.” We must let the Jewish scrupulosity stand for itself, though “and couches” is not supported by Aleph, B L D Bohairic, probably not genuine.
In other words, 80% to 90% of the greek texts don't include that phrase. This is reflected in several translations:
(American Standard Version) and when they come from the market-place, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, washings of cups, and pots, and brasen vessels.)
(New American Standard Bible) and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing of cups and pitchers and copper pots.)
Those that do include it call it various things:
(DRB) And when they come from the market, unless they be washed, they eat not: and many other things there are that have been delivered to them to observe, the washings of cups and of pots and of brazen vessels and of beds.
(ESV) and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.)
(ISV) They don't eat anything from the marketplace unless they dip it in water. They also observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, jars, brass pots, and dinner tables.)
(ALT) And [coming] from the marketplace, unless they baptize [or, ceremonially wash] themselves, they do not eat, and many other [traditions there] are which they received [and] are keeping: [like] baptisms [or, ceremonial washings] of cups and pitchers and brazen vessels and cots.
There are scholars who believe that that they actually did immerse, part by part, tables/beds/couches. For example, Gill's commentary:
gain (e), every vessel of wood, that is divided into two parts, is, clean, excepting a double table, &c., i.e. a table which consisted of various parts, and were folded together when it was removed: and these were washed by covering them in water; and very nice they were in washing them, that the water might reach every part, and that they might be covered all over; that there might be nothing which might separate between them and the water, and hinder its coming to them: as for instance, pitch being upon a table, whether within or without, divided between that and the water; and when this was the case, it was not rightly washed (f): but to washing tables by immersion, there is no objection;
So to conclude, it's not unreasonable to assume that yes, a table/bed/couch, was immersed, made fully wet. Considering all the other biblical evidence for immersion, it's not a very strong verse to be basing a doctrine upon.
lol...talk about a come to Jesus experience... :-)
My NIV translates the Greek "kline" in Mark 7:4 as "kettles" not "tables".
You're still dodging.
What you represented as Uncle Chip's position was not and you knew it.
You are decieving all of us here with a dishonest representation of Uncle's position.
Strawman you say?
****You're still dodging.
What you represented as Uncle Chip's position was not and you knew it.
You are decieving all of us here with a dishonest representation of Uncle's position.***
Let's go back to Post # 30.
******Why did this question about purifying become a question about baptizing here?
Probably the same reason that you're asking that question of me?
So, did the pharasees dip themselves when they came from the market each time? did they also dip their tables? Mar 7:4 And [when they come] from the market, except they wash (baptizo), they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing (baptizmos) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
They got their hands, cups, pots, vessels, and tables thoroughly wet, either covering them with water, dipping them into water, or pouring water on them until they were fully wet.
How do you clean your hands and dishes? Do you sprinkle water on them? maybe a little spray? or perhaps you dry clean them? Unless you get them thoroughly wet, they won't be clean. Take a lesson.*****
1. Purifying. "Baptism" translated as "washings" in the KJV.
2.NASV has a margin note of the pharases "sprinkling" themselves.
3. the KJV has "tables", the Douai Reims has "couches". Can you immagine trying to eat reclining on a wet couch!
4.The translations of "baptisms" as "washings" is probably because the KJV translators knew what was ment.
5. You say that the meaning is to get fully wet. Not so!
Read the words of Christ concerning the Pharasee's ritual cleansing of pots.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
This shows that "baptism" or ritual washing of dishes is merely a ritual cleansing without submerging it into water.
The purpose here is to show that the word "baptize" does not always mean immerse and has changed over the centuries to mean, at that time, sprinkling, pouring and immersing. So the people in Acts may have been sprinkled, poured on, or immersed.
My point is very clear. So where is the straw man?
Excellent post, Ruy.
The transition of the word is a reality. These usages are a reality.
Those who wish to discredit pouring or sprinkling have only a lexicon to argue from. We have the actual practices of the bible in hand.
Only Scripture.
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