Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
The verse is about knowing how to behave in church. It mentions, in a way that COULD be interpreted a couple of different ways, the pillar and ground of truth. But that pillar is subservient to the Word. The TRUE CHURCH can not be divorced from Scripture, for Scripture gives the Church its life. Where things/people identified as the church deviate from Scripture, they are not being a pillar and ground for truth. The pillar and ground are inseperable from the truth and the truth is the Word of God.
I wouldn't say that the church more readily lends itself to an architectural metaphor - especially when you see God Himself used as an architectural metaphor throughout Scripture. When Christ returns he will not come for a building, he will come for a people. So, with either God or the church you are dealing with living organisms (for lack of a better word). The metaphor could apply to either appropriately. Again, I think it probably is the church but I can't be adamant about it - nor can you all. God Himself is the truth. So it makes sense that He would be the supporter (pillar) and ground (could be seen as foundation which we know the chief cornerstone thereof is Christ) of the truth just as He is the life and the giver of life and the Lord of life etc.,
Not something any of us can absolutely hang our hats on from a Scriptural point of view. Now, if you claim the authority of the church for its interpretation ,that's a different thing. But we were talking the actual Greek Grammar here. And it isn't conclusive.
The Psalm speaks of the law, 2 Cor 12:9 of grace, and no none of that is a prooftext for Sola Scriptura.
John 1:1 does not define the Trinity. If it did, we'd call it Duality.
1 Peter 1:19 speaks of the word received by Peter in person, cf. verse 16.
Why anyone would leave harbor to journey into Edom and its capital city Petra is beyond me.
we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness. (2 Peter 16)Superstition is something you have no witness for, like the Sola Scriptura fable. We, however, got our martyrs who testify.the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined. (1 Cor 2:14)
LOL.
"We, however, got our martyrs who testify."
Testify to what?
Oh I agree. LOL.
lol, sure it does
And nowhere it says it is not desirable. This is one of these things we are not intructed in through the scripture.
Are we reading the same words? [ 2 Timothy 3:16-17]
Yes, we are. The passage is addressed to a Catholic bishop and described what is profitable for his perfection. It does not exclude other things, such as the Holy Tradition or magisterial teaching, which might be likewise profitable, and to which a reference is made in v. 14. It does, however, characterize the scripture he is talking about as "all that Timothy had known from his infancy", whioch to an alexandrine Jew means the entire Septuagint.
You should stick to Van Halen or whatever his name is, as the Scripture proves you wrong on every turn.
You are right, "oikos" it is in the context, but not in the disputed passage. Definitely, the family of God or the household of God are valid descriptions of the historical Church. Even the plan of salvation is called sometimes economy (oikonomia) of salvation. This is a powerful scripture to contemplate when thinking of the Communion of Saints.
So are you saying this scripture is meant only for Timothy?
I'm not one to get all hung up on the wearing of hats thing. I do want to point out, however, that the verse I posted about the woman's hair being her covering was from the New Testament.
It was, but Paul preached in synagogues.
That alone should put a damper on any historical aspirations, as St. Augistine is a late authority with regional appeal. fortunately for him, while he was an inspiration for the Reformers, he never actually believed anything the Reformers accuse him of believing and in fact he made sure later in life that his treatise on Predestination is not misunderstood in any proto-Calvinist way.
If you want to know what the early church universally believed, read "Against Heresies". Very easy read, two centuries earlier and universally recognized. Also hit Ignatius of Antioch, especially passages like
Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics.
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Chapter 9. Honour the bishop.
Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.
, and tell me if this reminds you of Protestantism.
"That God's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of God is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes shalt thou do to the Lord thy God, but what the Lord thy God has commanded thee; that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless you are able to prove that God has commanded your ceremonies, this his former commandment will damn both you and them." -- John Knox (Knox, Works, 1:199. Cf. Calvin, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, in Tracts, 1:128-29.)
It does not exclude other things, such as the Holy Tradition or magisterial teaching
It doesn't exclude pink elephants or pez dispensers either. But that's no reason to assume God speaks through pachyderms or candy.
stick to Van Halen or whatever his name is
A great guitarist, but I'm unaware of his theology.
OTOH Van Til is a great theologian.
Vice versa, as is scripturally evident. Christ -> Holy Spirit -> Church -> Truth -> Scripture. Scripture references available on demand.
I do. The rest is a moot point by now.
I usually am (and thank you for that unsolicited admission, btw), but then again I don't recall contributing anything to this thread outside of the topic of pontifical haberdashery.
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