Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
I saw the movie with Michael Medved, and did NOT like the way Mary and her parents were protrayed at all. Mary seemed insolent and her parents seemed mean.
I know the proof texts for this; however in reading the NT as a whole, it seems very contrary to its meaning. It seems prideful and presumptuous where Jesus is teaching humility.
I can allow that assurance may be useful for someone in their spriritual growth at some time, but for me, personally, it's a bad road to go down.
thanks very much for your reply. very much...
It is an oxymoron because 'free gift' suggests a possibility that something might be a 'gift' and not be free; it is a redundancy because free is synonymous with a gift; it is incorrect and even misleading because there is no such word in the Greek language original (since some people believe that every word in the Bible is exactly as God ordained it).
I was referring to your reply to my referenced statement, where you tell me that a gift is not a gift unless it is free. On that we agree.
The prof agrees that it probably refers to the church. However, he notes that the church gets its life from the Word of God and sees the church as a support (pillar) for the truth in a subsidiary (subordinate) sense to the word, which is the foundation. So in short, he believes that it is both - God and the Church, as God's subordinate.
I love those kind of buddies. I haven't had one in a while, but they're a great opportunity to test an unsound attack! :)
Years ago my now almost senile mother commanded a singing group on waikiki beach, for 22 years; sort of a hawaiian aloha/welcome wagon kind of thing. She was BORN to sing and we had people from all over the world in our group, plus passing troubadors, native hawaiian singers, etc.
After my father passed away there in 1995, A couple of years later I took his place : trucking the mike, amp, chairs, etc to/from the pavilion on the beach. I was PREVAILED upon to sing my 2 or 3 songs/day(bali hai, over the rainbow, etc), ie, SING for your supper; but as often as I could I'd play HOOKEY and sneak down to play chess at the next pavilion. It was CHESS CENTRAL for waikiki beach.
The full time pros I could never beat, but Howard from AZ was always there, playing the german guy Walter. We'd let him win one in 10 games. Classic masochist/shepherd. He has a fundamental idea to protect all of his little lamb/pawns. Did GWB go into Iraq expecting not to lose some guys?
So when we both left HI a couple of years ago, probably never to return(too expensive and mom too old), we agreed to play e-chess. As his guru I keep telling him : open your K/Q pawns, take COMMAND of the center. CARPE DEUM, sieze the day, get in the enemy's face, KICK ASS. Faint heart neer won fair lady.
Don't be afraid of a Q exchange, he HAS to take your Q in return, thus giving you the go-ahead move(BIG MO). A single N is worth TWICE what a single bishop is worth in the end game(put all your pieces on the other color). When you have the K by the gonads(check), hold onto his gonads until you run him into the ground, ie, saddam until HUNG by the neck.
Chess is WAR, and war is LIFE. As it's mostly a left brain exercise, do well in it and you'll do well in life; or at least become a Sherlock Holmes detective, not easily fooled. Things like : beware greeks bearing gifts : GREED does howard in time after time....and I'm the Flim-Flam Man, matriculating the sucker in the scam-school....(Oh boy, Oh Boy : FREE PAWN....WHACK!)
Well that claim must be made or the whole underpinnings of the religion collapses, and there goes the safety net upon which the whole notion rests, since Christ's sacrifice was no full propitiation for sins.
You are trying to single out individuals.
This has NOTHING to do with what the actual teachings of Faith and Morals of the Church.NOTHING!
Its like me saying that because someone in the Lutheran church commits murder -that all Lutherans and their teachings are bad.This would be a foolish and hateful thing to say
I hear this type of stuff from athiest who try and paint all Christians as bad to try and prove there is no God!
You make NO sense, Dear Brother!
"it is a redundancy because free is synonymous with a gift"
That's not necessarily true when it comes to soteriology. Some say before the "gift" is operative it has to be received or accepted or one has to make a decision to receive it or one has to complete the "good works" in order for it to be fully operative. Because of these accretions to the idea of gift, a discriminating term has to be used to explain the simple fact that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone; a gift alone, not of works of any kind or obfuscation.
i don't see anything wrong with wanting pictures of folks who've done great things in church history being placed at bus stops.
it would sure beat the condom ads, homosexual propaganda, and militant athiest darwinist advertisements usually found in these places.
Protestantism seems to have led us to a situation where showing church heros is frowned upon but showing pagan figures and symbols is commonplace.
the only way you can remove praying for the dead from the faith would be by removing parts of the bible at whim and writing them off as not applicable today; oh wait you already do that.
Removing 282 words of Holy Scripture on a whim collapses the underpinnings of the faith; this is exactly what protestants do routinely; the Bible buffet: I'l take a big helping of this, but that over there that sounds crazy. i'll just pretend it ain't there.' Protestantism at its finest.
Am on a multihundred post search for particular types of posts. And reread much of this one--mostly as it's quite good. And just wanted to commend you again for the wisdom and good sentences, truths and ideas in it.
First, it is colossal pride and vanity to presume that one sees from God's point of view.
= = =
NOT IF
God goes to the trouble to pointedly IMPART HIS POV TO AN INDIVIDUAL.
THEN, it's colossal pride and vanity to avoid seeing from God's point of view.
If you look at the consistant use of the word "house" in the text it means "household" or "family" not a place or institution. What Paul is talking about is the local family of God, especially since there were many local representations of the "household of faith". It was in the local "household", the assembly or company of those called out by the Holy Spirit, that the truth, the the word of God, was maintained and propagated by the Holy Spirit through the gifts given to the local household of faith.
THAT would logically only be true . . .
IF
THE TEXT WAS 100% UNAMBIGUOUS ON ALL ISSUES AT ALL POINTS.
I suppose one could also add . . . and/or IF Holy Spirit was 100% emphatically, precisely, convincingly crystal clear in identical ways on 100% of the text on 100% of the issues and points with 100% of the readers. Hasn't seemed to be His priority to be so.
We say it can lead to error is read alone.
AS it OBVIOUSLY CAN when read with the magesterical--witness the gross errors in various centuries throughout the church in virtually all groups, denominations.
No surprise. Groups are human, TOO.
The veneration is of their feat of faith: their sacrifice in their life. We see Christ in them. So we venerate them, because we love Christ.
= = = =
I automatically PRAISE GOD for the bro/sis.
ALL good comes from GOD. HE ALONE IS WORTHY. It is yet another opportunity to PRAISE GOD for HIS BLESSINGS through the individual(s). Otherwise is very bassackwards and unBiblical, to me.
Look, we have seen so many professions of the leadership of the Holy Spirit here. Why is the same leadership of the Holy Spirit denied the fathers of the Church, in matters of canon or theology?
= = =
NOT denied them at all.
Just that we realistically understand that they,
TOO
were/are flawed in their hearing of Holy Spirit just as we all tend to be; just as they were/are flawed in reading Scripture individually and collectively just as we all are/tend to be.
They were NOT magical nor magically protected into perfect understanding and infallibility on such matters any more than we are.
Some good wisdom, here, too.
Not that I agree with every sentence, of course! LOL.
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