Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
I'm sure that the fragments on the Dead Sea Scrolls will turn up any day now
1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Since your church rejects the things St Paul writes in Corinthians you must be a bunch of non Christian false prophets.
St Paul spoke of such folks also.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Thankfully, no.
Mother put too much of the fear of God into me about getting a woman pregnant. I was terrified to allow my mind to go there in such contexts.
Has been an abiding thing. Thankfully. I think.
Thanks for your kind words.
Is but a hypothesis. But a rather plausible one, it seems to me. PTL, of course, for any viability to it.
You have me confused with someone else. My congregation rejects no thing that is in the bible.
Doesn't seem like a secret revelation.
They pontificate a lot vis a vis the early church fathers.
But I suspect a careful and accurate neutral examination of the historical record would show a very pronounced evolution in intensity, elaboration and comprehensiveness of the Marian elevation stuff.
If the women aren't covering they're heads and refraining from preaching they are rejecting the teachings of St Paul.
Well dear brother, I've found out the hard way on the same sorts of phenomena in my life . . .
that it IS as the Chinese say . . .
The onlookers see the game best--in many contexts about many issues. Just a fact of life.
It has been true of me. It has been true of many Protesties who'd have been insistent it could not be true and was not true. And, if my observational skills and discernment have a shred of validity at all, it is troue of countless RC's, too. Not alone, but too.
Just the accoutraments are different. The phenomena are the same.
The human tendencies, habits, obsessions, . . . are the same.
Awwwww.
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering
more protestant twisting to try to change what Paul is clearly saying.
You should read this some more:
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
This is a different discussion on the theme. It is a little longer and I apologize but the last paragraph is interesting as it references the communion between the dead saints and the living. I'll have to spend a little more time thinking about it or else change some of my habits and language if there are unknown saints watching.
SECTION 2.—THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS
This article appears to have first found place in the Creed as a protest against the tenets of a sect called the Donatists, from Donatus their leader. He seceded (314 A.D.) from the Christian Church in North Africa, carrying with him numerous followers, and set up a new church organisation, claiming for it place and authority as the only Church of Christ. Circumstances put powers of excommunication and persecution at his disposal, which he directed against those who refused to become his followers.
Augustine was for a time a Donatist, but his truth-loving spirit soon discovered the real character of Donatus, and then he became his active and uncompromising opponent. It was probably as a protest against the arrogance of the Donatists, and in deference to Augustine's wish, that the clause was inserted. In this profession it is declared that the Holy Catholic Church is one not in virtue of outward forms, or even through perfect agreement among its members upon all details of doctrine, but because of the holiness of those who compose it. It refuses to excommunicate any who hold fast the form of sound words, and who adhere to one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. It is a brotherhood of which all who have the spirit of Christ are members. Differences in colour, or country, or rank do not suffice to separate those who are "the body of Christ and members in particular." The spirit of Christian fellowship that marks the saints finds fitting expression in the noble words of Augustine, "In things essential, unity; in things doubtful, liberty; in all things, charity."
The primary meaning of the word "saint" is a person consecrated or set apart. In this sense all baptized persons who are professing members of the Church of Christ are saints. In the New Testament the whole body of professing Christians resident in a city or district are called saints, although some among them may have been unworthy; just as in the Old Testament the prophets even in degenerate times termed the people of Israel an "holy nation," that is, a nation separated from the rest of the world and consecrated to God's service. Thus we read that Peter visited the saints which dwelt at Lydda.[193] Paul speaks of a collection for the poor saints at Jerusalem, and writes letters to all the saints in Achaia,[194] to all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, and to the saints at Ephesus; and Jude speaks of the faith once delivered to the saints. In these passages the title is applied to all who were in outward fellowship with the Christian Church.
The term "saint" is used also in a more restricted sense. As they were not all Israel who were of Israel, and as not every one that saith "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, so all who are enrolled as members of the Christian Church do not lead saintly lives, and those only are truly saints who are striving to live godly in Christ Jesus, and to be holy, even as He who hath called them is holy. This clause of the Creed expresses the doctrine that Christians ought to have fellowship one with another, and that there ought to be harmonious relations and stimulating communion between their several churches and congregations—such fellowship and communion as may lead the world to believe that they are one in Christ, and that, though compelled by circumstances to assemble in different places and to form separate societies, they are, nevertheless, all members of one body, of which Jesus Christ is the Head; all stones in one building, of which He is the chief Corner-stone; all branches in one true vine, of which He is the Stem; and all animated and directed by the same Spirit. Thus regarded, the clause is a protest against the exclusiveness which often marks Christian churches, and is a recognition of the spirit of charity.
The extent of this Communion of the Saints is not revealed. Much of it is spiritual, and is therefore invisible to us. God alone marks in full measure the fellowship of the churches, and is acquainted with the character and conduct of all their members. He knew the seven thousand in Israel who had never bowed the knee to Baal, and the real, though unrecognised, communion they had with one another in their common fidelity and prayer to Him; but Elijah did not know how much true fellowship he had, when he denounced the idolatries of Jezebel and pleaded with God for Israel. The ignorance of the prophet, who thought he was the only faithful Israelite, has its counterpart in our own times. God knows, but we do not know, how many faithful saints there are in the world who are in fellowship with one another because they are in fellowship with Him. We are excluded by many barriers from the knowledge of our brethren and sisters in Christ Jesus. Natural and moral difficulties stand in the way, hindering this knowledge; differences in language, in environment, in habits and modes of thought, and other limitations, disable us for truly gauging the character of those with whom we are brought into close contact. Communion is nevertheless real and true. The members of the Church of the living God, however they may be scattered and divided, have communion and fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and being in fellowship with God, they are of one mind, and are knit together by common faith and mutual sympathy. They are all one with the same Head, and they have all one hope of their calling.
Our Lord brought life and immortality to light, and taught men that between the Church militant and the Church triumphant there is indissoluble fellowship. Those who followed holiness in this life are saints still in the life to which they have passed. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, believers are told that they "are come to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven ... and to the spirits of just men made perfect."[195]
While the clause was probably inserted at first to vindicate the doctrine of communion of saints in this life, it has long been regarded as extending to a communion subsisting between the spirits of just men made perfect and followers of the Lord Jesus Christ who are still on earth. The passage last quoted justifies the inference that death does not suspend the fellowship which believers in Jesus Christ have with Him, their common Lord. Death separates the soul from the body, but it does not cut off the dead from communion with the Father or the Son. He who is the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob is the God not of the dead, but of the living. Of the whole family of the saints, some are in heaven and some on earth, and, between those who are there and those who are here, there is communion. Since the heavenly Church received Abel as its first member, there has been unceasing fellowship between militant and glorified saints. Those who are here are shut out by the tabernacle of the body from personal intercourse with the souls of the departed, but are yet in a fellowship with them that is very real and precious. The holy dead act upon the living, and, it may be, are reacted upon in ways we do not understand. Of Abel we are told that "being dead, he yet speaketh."[196] Those whom death has taken do not cease to exert an influence on the lives of friends left behind. Their example, their good deeds, their writings, the undying consequences of what they did while on earth affect us. The veil which death interposes between us and them hinders us from witnessing their spirit life, and we know not whether, or in what measure, or how, they contemplate us. We do not go to them to ask them to intercede for us with the Father, for we believe there is but one Mediator between God and man. We do not invest them with attributes which belong to God alone; all that we are warranted to say about their relation to us is, that what is revealed does not forbid, but rather encourages, the thought that they are interested in us and concerned for our happiness. If the angels rejoice over the conversion of a sinner, are we to think that the spirits of just men made perfect are strangers to this joy? They are within the veil, we cannot see them, but we know they are in communion with God. The condition of the departed saints is one of waiting as well as of progress. They have not attained to fruition. There are doctrines which to them, as to us, are still matters not of experience but of faith and hope. The souls of the martyrs seen by John under the altar were in a state of expectation, desiring and pleading as when in the flesh they had desired and pleaded for the consummation of Messiah's kingdom; and from them the Apostle heard the cry ascend, "How long, O Lord?"[197] Saints here and saints who have passed through the valley into the unseen must surely hold many beliefs in common. Both alike believe the promises of God, and anticipate the glorious consummation for which they wait and watch, when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the living God. They believe in the resurrection of the body and in its reunion with the soul for ever. They have common affections. Their love is given to the same God. They have community of worship, and have communion in thanksgiving, praise, and, may we not say, in prayer for the overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and the advent of the kingdom of glory? As those who are still in the body keep the New Testament feast, they feel that there is fellowship between them and saints departed, seeing that they honour the same Saviour, glory in the same cross, partake of the same heavenly food, and look for the same inheritance of perfect blessedness.
Yes, he is speaking of the doctrines of devils. The doctrine of devils will never be in the bible, but they will be extra-biblical.
Private revelations are fine, as long as they are stated like that. I am simply curious what exactly his reasoning was. I gave you my reasoning: Mary is the Theotokos, so naturally we know Christ through her.
The foundational prooftext for mariology is the Wedding at Cana, where she invites Christ to begin His ministry and tells us "do what He tells you". What you either misunderstand or misrepresent is that Mary does not order Christ around; her mediation is on a different plane.
for instance when the St Paul in the Bible spends 282 words making clear that women prayer uncovered is against the commandments of God such wolves would pick 5 to to twist so as to lead the faithful astray.
all of the pharisees sinful conclusions were based on twisting scripture as well...
Amen. (And God gives the new heart.) 8~)
If so, I apologize to you. My point is simply that the emperor has no clothes, and I see no reason to be circumspect about it, -- in fact it is our duty as Catholic to defend God's Church from all attack. It is also the greatest work of love that I can offer to the Protestants, to point out their error.
Jesus came to do the Will of the Father, not the mother. God alone would tell Jesus when to start His ministry. It was the Father's business that Jesus was about, not his mother's. The truth is, she overstepped her role, and Jesus rebuked her.
Mary is the mother of God. It is through the miracle of the Incarnation that we see the face of God.
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