Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
"Here is the entire book: The Dark Night By St. John of the Cross."
Love that book.
Latin. Mostly of the contemplative 'school.' I'm currently studying Orthodox practices and I'm finding, not surprisingly, it's mostly the same - with some Greek words. :)
Though as I said much earlier, contemplatives are not seen as mainstream in the West as in the East, or at least that's my limited impression and experience.
"And the Popes in the first millennium professed the same Orthodox Faith we profess to this day, and many of them are Orthodox Saints."
Here's a link to a list of them. I don't know if it is complete but it looks it. Its from a Roman source so the "spin" may be a bit off what we would say.
http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/orthopopes.html
Oh, lovely. You must be familiar with Thomas Merton, one of my favorite Catholic contemplatives.
I'm currently studying Orthodox practices and I'm finding, not surprisingly, it's mostly the same - with some Greek words. :)
It's one and the same, except those "Greek words." :)
Though as I said much earlier, contemplative are not seen as mainstream in the West as in the East, or at least that's my limited impression and experience
It's a culture that has been greatly lost or suppressed in the West, I believe, after the intrusion of Greek pagan philosophy into Western Christianity and the Age of Reason.
Thanks for sharing this.
Thanks, Kolo, excellent reference!
Yes. Merton was the pivot (in a rather fortuitous accident) for me in traveling from atheism to Catholicism. I've heard him criticised for going too Eastern (as in buddhist), but that gate is where a lot of opportunity for evangelism is these days in the West. I wasn't the first or the last.
Hadn't thought about the Age of Reason's effect on contemplative spirituality in the West but it makes sense. In general the Western mind is more aimed at or drawn to the rational and empirical sciences. Personally I was just grateful - and amazed - that the practices and traditions still exist and are taught, somewhere, anywhere in Western Christianity. Anecdotally, I think it is growing.
thanks very much for your reply..
"The very rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern Churches should be known, venerated, preserved and cherished by all. They must recognize that this is of supreme importance for the faithful preservation of the fullness of Christian tradition..."
Merton for me, at least the early/middle period Merton, is simply wonderful. So many of his struggles are something I can identify with. I do think he went a bit off the rails towards the end, however. One of my favorite passtimes is to go up to the cottege before ice out, light a fire in the stove, put on some good classical Russian music, pour a good MacAllan's and read Merton.
Kosta's observation about the Age of Reason is spot on. Luckily in many ways, it didn't penetrate the religious consciousness of the Eastern Church.
There's a marvelous little book you might enjoy, if you can find it. Its called "Orthodox Spirituality By a Monk of the Eastern Church." Sometimes it can be hard to find, but frankly most anything by the Desert Fathers is good reading for a contemplative.
+1 !
Kolo, Merton only recongnized that Eastern religions rely on apophatic thinkling as we do. He made it very clear, however, that they lack the essential link between God and man, namely Christ.
No other religion can have such a close and personal relationship with God. It is only in Christ that God becomes visible and therefore personal. To other religions, where spirituality and apophatic ways are common, God still remains a distant and impersonal entity.
Merton never crossed into that realm. But he could certainly relate more to Hinduism and Buddhism than to the Wrathful God of the West. You should read some of the upanishads and similar writings and you will recognize a lot of our own Desert Fathers in them.
I feel like I've said again and again and again that faith is a gift, works are a gift, merit is a gift, it's all gift.
Not only is this my attempt at a radical proclamation of of even more radical dependence on God, and that everything comes from the Father, "every good gift", but it is a clue that the language and thought about works and merit are not what they at first appear to be. Of course, God is not dependent on humanity.
But still, if that's an thoroughly adequate statement of affairs, why is there language like this"
If you open that door, things will be fine amongst us. If not, you're going to get a whipping. For those who overcome this current condition, there is great reward for you.How am I to construe this? I won't think of God as dependent, as waiting for others to open the door, but yet there is at the least a kind of sequencing here. And if you run sequencing through the Hume computer you get a kind of cause and effect, or at least the appearance of cause and effect.
If God runs the whole deal (itself undeniably true) and the language is adequate, why doesn't it say, "I'll knock at the door and will move, am moving, and/or have already moved some of you to open it." Or, "Door, Schmoor! I'm coming in! Home invasion!" (And we all cry, "WELCOME, divine invader, WELCOME!")
Can you think I ran sheep for some 15 years and am not familiar with the Good Shepherd discourse? It is so true. Some sheep knew their names and came when I called. Others for their whole lives looked at me like I was a coyote. It's interesting though, the ones who were most afraid of me were usually easier to shear. They would, as a rule, just go limp with terror. Go figger.
Also I ran goats and milked 'em, and am thinking of getting a few goats again -- for looking at and petting purposes. While I really loved some of my sheep, for sheer character and, ah, capriciousness, goats are the BOMB! When I start MY heretical sect, the Kynoi Kyriou, it'll based on the notion that it's the goats that get into heaven. Look for us soon in a crystal cathedral near you!
(I have freep mailed you a comment on the hyperdulia of our Lady which I think you will enjoy and understand.)
As all such stories are, it could be misconstrued. Certainly it is for me to be obedient in things. But if I ever thought my obedience or the things themselves were going to save me that would be as silly as thinking I could "acheive" holiness by ignoring forms and being disobedient.
Like the guy who urinated in the garden by the Zendo. It takes more than that ...
Thank you, Kosta, for your kind words. I have been busy with work lately, as we are moving to a new Air Traffic Control facility with all kinds of brand new equipment with a steep learning curve.
I have not been on Free Republic as much because it seems to have become a dead-end proposition, arguing the same points with the same people over and over again. I can't believe this thread has gone so long and delved into such ridiculous depths, like the DNA of Mary and such... Getting intimately involved with another 10,000 post thread is not my desire anymore, as it doesn't help my spirituality and is pretty much like talking to the wall.
In the meantime, keep up the good work! I hope at least one person benefits from your evangelization and explanation of the Gospel.
Regards
Indeed it is, and a sinner alone in the desert can have it. This is why, when a professed Christian can avail himself of sacramental confession, and doesn't do so, his personal salvation becomes doubtful. More so when a day does not dawn without him congratulating himself on this lapse.
Here is the biggest difference we have. As I understand the EO, you believe that it is only at the end of your life, based on your Christian walk (works), that you may or may not be deemed worthy of salvation. As a Baptist, I believe at the point where I had saving Faith I became indwelt by the Holy Spirit and received the free gift of Grace and that once I was in Jesus' hand (the indwelling Holy Spirit) no matter what I will be saved (POTS, or OSAS).
As a Calvinist I believe I was drawn to that saving Faith by the Father, but many Baptists also believe they make a free will choice to be saved. For me this is a matter of scriptural discernment and is not a salvational issue. At no time do I believe my Christian walk buys me anything. It just serves as a reflection of the Holy Spirit within me and a desire on my part to serve the LORD well.
Good one! I rode one ONCE and that was really quite enough. But life is a roller coaster and that ride has been, at times, much worse than a merry go round OR a roller coaster.
Oh, I so agree dear Alamo-Girl!
To me, the most depressing thing about the current state of the culture is that everyone seems to be "at war" with everyone else these days. Even Christians attack each other. Whatever happened to the spirit of charity? It is a law of God.
Of course, to the extent that influential sectors in the culture are consciously, deliberately making war on God, and thus on His law, I suppose it is to be expected that peoples' expressions to one another will become increasingly self-referring, disordered, irrational, even vicious.
The way I explain this to myself is to say that under God, there is a common, shared ground of being and thus of discourse. The enemies of God and Western culture more generally know this, which explains the hostility towards God -- and towards man by implication.
But one would think that Christians, of all people, would not be prone to the descent into personal abuse of one another on the basis of doctrinal differences.
As you say, dear Alamo-Girl, we ought to be united in the Spirit of God, showing charity and good will towards one another rather than spite and personal abuse. IMHO, we can leave that sort of thing up to the U.S. Congress and the anti-God contingent: We must not forget that, for all our differences, we Christians (of whatever denomination) are equally members of the Body of Christ, and are called to conduct ourselves in such a way as to demonstrate God's love in this world.
If we don't "walk the talk" in this world, then who will?
Well, FWIW, just looking at the "big picture" here. I hope the foregoing makes sense (I'm confident it makes sense to you!). Thank you so much for your glorious essay/post, my dearest sister in Christ!
Do we really have to redefine our terms because some people don't know enough to figure such things out correctly? Political correctness run amok!
Where in the world do you get political correctness out of this? You don't "have" to redefine anything if you use the term and don't care what the theologically uneducated think. I am just saying that to the average uneducated American Christian, the term, by itself, will lead to thoughts of your faith that you would say are completely wrong. If that is fine with you, then OK. If it isn't and you still want to use the term, then you will have to offer an explanation to go with it for the uneducated.
I am not sure what you expect of an uneducated person in terms of "figuring it out". On its face, the term does appear to stand by itself. Were I an average uneducated Christian and heard that your faith strongly stands behind that term, I would just dismiss your faith outright as a cult or something. I would be wrong, of course, but I do think it would be a "normal" reaction.
Scripture says to store up treasure in Heaven vs earth.
Evidently there's a way to do that.
But it has nothing to do with Salvation.
One believer either in vision or visit toured some mansions in Heaven.
Some were relatively bare. Some were greatly appointed in grand artworks etc.
On being queried, God or the angel giving the tour quoted that Scripture. And, noted that the grandest paintings were bought with great suffering successfully overcome, endured.
Interesting story, anyway.
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