Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Well, then +Athanasius was a "New Age" type of a guy.
Thanksgiving.
if I was 30 years younger I'd learn Greek.
Could you find some other Apostle who calls it a sacrifice? Did Jesus ever say he was sacrificing Himself because the Father demanded it?
Whatever great things +Paul did for the Church (for, without him the Church would have died out in Israel), the man never saw Christ in Person. He never ate with Him. He never walked with Him. Yet, without him the protestans would not be Christians.
Whereas the Gospels narrate what Chirst said and did, +Paul interprets why He did. I find that a little strange that he would do that.
It's almost like his own brand of Christianity, but after the fact.
Wow. You're just being nice to me now with this softball, right.
Will this guy convince you?
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." -- John 10:-18"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
And Dr. Eckleburg provided out-of-context, solitary Paulian verses (as usual) to back that up. I would prefer a concordance approach, one that would show that +Paul and other Apostles were on the same sheet of music.
+Paul is known to remind us that some of his judgments are his own and not the Lord's commandments, so I always wonder if what he says is his own interpretation or actually something our Lord said and taught.
One thing is certain: the Eastern tradition never did teach that God demanded a sacrifice (cf Mat 9:13).
No. It's a lot more involved than that.
No need to wonder. If Paul doesn't point it out, then it's from the Lord. He's very honest. He points out when it's his analysis.
At the same time, though, considering his life, wouldn't you consider that the analysis of a man whose very life testifed that his every fiber was dedicated to the Lord?
My point: it'd be hard to go against Paul's own Godly analysis.
You say that like it's a good thing.
Dear friend, calling on the Lord Jesus Chirst does not make one Chirstian. Gnostics, Arians, Nestorians, Bogomils, Anabaptists, Latter-Day-Saints, Docetists, Jehova's Witnesses, and many more call Jesus their Lord too, but their beliefs are not those the Church held from the beginning.
from http://userpages.aug.com/~mdkersey/Theosis.html
An easy definition for Theosis is: "Union with God". St Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord"....Rev. Dr. Stanley Harakas relates to Theosis and becoming a saint with "a term in Orthodox Christian teaching which describes that believer who has deeply bonded his life with God, who worships and communes with God, and who feels, wills and acts in harmony with Gods life and will" ...
What would you add or take away from that?
LOLOL!!!
Give it a try! Kolo is older than Athens and even he learned Greek! :)
Dr. E, I had a feeling you'd reply in this manner. Must I remind you that the issue was whether God demanded a sacrifice, not whether He sacrificed (did a wholy thing) Himself for us, out of love, a gift indeed, not ab obligation.
The Church never believd God demanded sacrifice. The Church always believed God willingly did it. Not because He was obliged, but because He so desired.
Suggesting that God demanded sacrifice is contrary to God's mercy, a blasphemy, as I said. It is a distorted idea of God's justice, based on human concept of justice that requires retribution for wounded pride. It is western Christianity at its worst.
When folks start doubting Paul's clear statements, I think it's time to . . . go . . .
bob for apples . . . anything.
Sounds about as doctrinally astute as Jimmuh Cartuh thinking he knows more about Christian doctrine than St Paul.
Boggles the mind.
Not much. One thing comes to mind" dying unto the world and especially oneself. It is a process, a life-long journey of purification, characterized by humility, and selflessness, ever more in harmony with God's will, ever-more Christ-like.
In fact, Orthodoxy defines being "saved" not by proclaiming Christ our Lord and Savior, but how Christ-like we have become following Him at the end of our journey.
"Give it a try! Kolo is older than Athens and even he learned Greek! :)"
Hey, you're older than me! :)
But D, you should learn. Its very easy. In Greece there are children 2 years old who get by pretty well in it. By the time they're 3 they are quite fluent!
2) I misread the doctrine of Atonement, and
3) the Atonement is a mystery to Catholics.
I suppose I can be forgiven for my confusion as to what Catholics truly believe about the Atonement, since Catholics don't seem to know and official websites are erroneous or unclear. One has to wonder how Catholics could develop traditions when so much is in error and confusing.
Since I don't seem to know what I'm talking about after providing multiple Catholic sources on the topic, then I would suggest you provide a reference to a short doctrinal statement as to what Catholics believe on the Atonement.
There is also salvation from this evil age and from the flesh.
We would refer to that as sanctification, and it, too, is ours only by grace. It is the "loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength."
Wmfights is right to make the connection with theosis. "Christ in us the hope of glory."
Actually I believe I referenced St Clements somewhere back. I have several others but, I must warn you, they're western church fathers.
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