Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
If in Timothy's church an intercession is made, say, for a king, then Timothy is praying to Christ on behalf of the king. Christ is mediator, Timothy is intercessor, and the king is the benefactor.
If a king came to Timothy and asked Timothy to pray for him, that then would be entirely biblical, because this would be exactly what the scripture tells Timothy to do.
If Timothy were to die, and go to heaven, Timothy could continue doing the same thing. That is because Timothy would then receive eternal life promised him in 1 Timothy 6. But now the king would be praying to St. Timothy, would he not?
The dirt nap referred to soul sleep. Such is unbiblical. Apparently, prior to the resurrection, OT saints were not in a physical state different from NT saints (they were recognizable- witness Abraham, Moses, Samuel), their location was different (Paradise as opposed to heaven). Beyond that, we aren't told of differences.
That is not Scriptural. It is a fabrication of men. Necromancy is not far off.
i was pingged to this thread several times, but have yet to comment as far as i am aware.
i am also a bit confused by the discourse between the two of you:
MONKFAN: Are you seriously asserting that there was no resurrection of the dead ~the reuniting of the immaterial nature of man with the physical body~ BEFORE Christ's ressurection?
If so you are incorrect. Lazarus immediately comes to mind, as does the young girl that Jesus resurrected. That's just New testament. There are also Old Testament examples of dead people being resurrected.
BLOGGER: Are you talking about Physical resurrection or the disposition of the non-corporeal nature of man (soul/spirit)?
CDL returns to lurk mode.
You object to the fact that Timothy has eternal life, or to the fact that he can pray to Christ when in heaven, or what exactly is not scriptural, do you think, and why?
By the way, I didn't mean to imply that there was NO resurrection prior to Christ's resurrection. Lazarus was raised. Many came out of their graves when Jesus resurrected. Jairus' daughter was raised. However, with very very very few exceptions most who have passed away who were Christians are now with Christ Jesus but have not received glorified bodies as of yet. In the moment, in the twinkling of the eye, they will be changed. The mortal will put on immortality. They exist today in a recognizable state. But in the future they will receive something akin to Christ's resurrected body (walking through walls even, apparently but yet physical enough to be able to eat).
It doesn't make sense to "pray to" someone who you are in the physical presence of.
Possibly the most hysterical post on this thread. The Church has held and practiced certain beliefs for two thousand years. If necromancy "wasn't far off" shouldn't have happened by now?
What do you think talking to dead people and asking for their intervention is?
What do you think Eternal Life in Heaven is?
Really? Perhaps your frequent use of the internet conditioned you differently, but I come into the physical presence of quite a few people in the course of my day, and we exchange requests. It works, -- they give me money for it.
You reference St. Anselm in regards to the Orthodox teaching. Please look at New Advent. Catholics claim their doctrine is derived (modified) from St. Anselm as well.
I find Catholics tend to say things are inaccurate when, in fact, they are simply an analysis of their own doctrine.
Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. - Clements
My (3) is what you might call blood atonement.
Virtual presence and physical presence are not the same.
No, but your statement that Timothy in heaven cannot pray to Christ because he is in His physical presence still makes no sense to me.
I wouldn't exactly call it Kosher. But I will grant that you do not attribute your veneration as "worship" and that your worship of God would be on a higher level than your veneration of Mary or the saints.
That's about all the concession I would be willing to give. I still believe that what is done in regard to the "veneration of Mary" and "prayers to or through the saints" is contrary to scripture.
We talk to people who are next to us in the room or in our presence. Prayer has a certain level of separation built into it. Christ is ever-present but yet our senses usually do not perceive Him in the same way that it would be if His physical body were with us in the room. Prayer involves praying to one who is Supernatural and is in heaven. If you are already there, there is no need to pray, just talk to the Lord.
There is no biblical example of praying to a Saint.
This is what prayer is.
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