Not much difference in my mind.
Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
"Is it then correct then that in the EOC, that nothing has been "set in stone" (in terms of things "new") since the Ecumenical Councils? Also, how many of them do you recognize? I've seen answers from 7 to 9."
Yes and 7.
"Isn't this the position we have been maintaining concerning Mary being the mother of Jesus' human nature that was taken on at the incarnation?"
Nope; Panagia was the mother of the Second Person of the Trinity Incarnate.
"We believe that the idea that interpretation of Scripture is for an official centralized church body and not for all believers everywhere is unscriptural."
In a vague sort of way, this is Orthodox. No individual bishop or groups of bishops can assuredly declare something dogma, and in Orthodoxy there is very little of that, unless that proclamation is accepted and lived out by the people of God in The Church (which of course we define differently from you folks). Hierarchs have tried to proclaim things dogmatically and even as matters of discipline which the people of God have rejected as no dogma at all and it sticks. The Latin system is rather different.
"Forgive me if I have forgotten the Orthodox teaching. I thought you were in agreement with the Roman Catholics that the Holy Spirit abandons any body in a state of "major" (mortal) sin before the next confession, and then re-enters the body upon the completion of penance. It has been a while for me on this subject, so I admit to being a little fuzzy. :) I remember that you don't really get into the concept of "mortal" sin all that much, but I couldn't remember what the view was on when the Spirit indwells and whether He leaves, and then comes back, etc."
"A house roof is held up by the foundations and the rest of the building, and the foundation and the rest of the building are laid to hold the roof - since both are necessary and useful - and neither is the roof built without the foundations and the rest of the house, nor can foundations and walls without roof make a building fit to live in. So it is with the soul: the grace of the Holy Spirit is preserved by keeping the commandments, and the keeping of the commandments is the foundation laid for receiving the gifts of God's grace. Neither does the grace of the Holy Spirit remain in us without our obeying the commandments, nor can obeying the commandments be useful and salutary without Divine grace." +Symeon the New Theologian
"Just out of curiousity, what is the difference between Theotokos and theophorus? Just a question. Is one bearing a child and one bearing or carrying His word?"
Theotokos means that Mary gave birth, "bore" God. Theophoros means that God was with or upon +Ignatius.
We still haven't come to your reason for the original discussion. You agreed God is not capricious in this. How so?
"That being said, now would you admit that the book of Timothy contains the Truth of the Church?"
HD, it isn't "the Truth of the Church"; its simply the Truth. Whether or not it has been given to The Church to fully understand and appreciate that Truth right now is another matter entirely. As I have said, all The Church seeks in scripture is the Truth about our theosis in the divine economy of salvation, which, of course, is the only Truth which matters in the end.
Let me add this thought from +Justin Popovich
"What is truth?" inquired Pilate of the incarnate Truth, wanting to hear with his own ears that which he did not perceive with his eyes, as though it was not the same soul that was hearing through his ears and seeing through his eyes. The God-man Christ is the Truth, not as word, neither as teaching nor as concrete energy, but as a most perfect and eternally living divine-human Hypostasis. It is only as a theanthropic Personality that He is the criterion of truth. It is for this reason that the God-man not only said, "I am the Truth," but also that, "I am the Way" (Jn. 14:6), that is, He is the way to Truth itself, the criterion of Truth itself, the essence of Truth itself. The criterion of Truth is the Truth itself, and the Truth is the God-man Christ. Thus, whatever does not come from Him is not from the Truth. The Truth cannot ontologically exist outside of his divine-human personality."
"I am even more surprized if not outright disappointed, that you would suggest that "as regards His existence" you believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I do hope you realize that you are making a statement of double origin."
He's right, FK. Not an idea you want to cling to at all!
I'm sorry, I don't understand this part. Please restate.
You will only affirm that God knew everything before He acted, or you will deny that God is omniscient.
Omniscient. We agree. But it does not necessarily follow that each man's choice is therefore part of a predetermined clockwork. Preknowledge does not create an identity with predestination.
The way out is to trust God.
We agree again.
"You know, all of these arguments were, ahem, fleshed-out in the First Several Ecumenical Councils."
They were there, I wasn't as I missed them due to pressing business."
Ah, well, you should know that man does not live by bread alone, BD. But you're in luck, the proceedings are all online, just a couple of clicks away. The only thing missing is a picture of +Nicholas slapping Arius across the face! :)
HD, with all due respect to +Alexander, these books purporting to explicate Orthodoxy are seldom if ever complete or correct. They are a sort of, at best, a foretaste of Orthodoxy. To understand Orthodoxy, one needs to be fully conversant with the scriptures, read the Fathers and the declarations of the Ecumenical Councils and then "experience it" through living a liturgical year at least...or you can be born into it and take it seriously enough to believe.
Not much difference in my mind.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Hebrews 13:5 KJV)
Good thing the scriptures give us comfort. Clearly Catholic teaching doesn't.
Sorry, I forgot to remove your name from kolo's list
having two small children and four visiting nephews for the Christmas season, which for me doesn't end until the sixth, although I should keep it alive until February 2nd, I have not had time to follow all four thousand posts on this issue, but I am guessing that they are way off the subject of how Christ entered this world. Just a guess.....
I do tend to think that at some level this becomes a devotional issue, with the understanding that Our Lady's perpetual virginity is not truly up for debate.
I thought I explained that; God is not capricious (fickled, erratic). Instead, He is the antonym of capricious (steady, constant). God directs all things towards His ends.
YIKES!!! If it's that complicated that one has to read all the Fathers, understand the Ecumenical Councils, have a full grasp on the scriptures and live it at least a year, it's amazing that the Orthodox converts anyone. I find it's a weak argument to say "We can't explain it, you have to experience it."
Each man's choice is predetermined because of God's foreknowledge.
Before God created this earth He knew that Saddam Hussein would be hung and would still be an unbeliever.
He either knows everything or He doesn't.
One doesn't necessarily follow the other.
Let me try an analogy.
Say, I know you will eat too much candy. Did I therefore cause you to? Predetermine it? Not necessarily.
Another one.
Say I know a child will make big mistakes, will suffer greatly for them. Yet I chose to have the child anyway.
Did I predetermine or cause its suffering? There are a lot of variations in this area...
Foreknowing is not identical with predestination.
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